C&S Brass, Any Scale, Listed on eBay

[SteveG]

There are two Lambert HOn3 moguls up for sale:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lambert-Associates-Brass-HOn3-Scale-Colorado-Southern-8-C-S-2-6-0-D-Locomotive/333769622304?hash=item4db6384320:g:~fUAAOSw5aVfmihr
https://www.ebay.com/itm/C-S-SNOW-PLOW-PILOT-HOn3-BRASS-LAMBERT-C-S-2-6-0-COLORADO-SOUTHERN/283934470086?hash=item421bd02fc6:g:Ox0AAOSwr5Fe~YqY

The first one, painted and lettered as #8, started at $195.
The second one, unpainted, has been up for a while, with the price dropped from $495 down to $415.

It'll be interesting to see what FMV emerges as the prices converge.

Steve Guty
Lakeway, TX

[nedsn3]

These two Sn3 OMI locos just appeared on ebay;

 https://www.ebay.com/itm/SN3-BRASS-OMI-2-8-0-C-S-74-B-4F-OVERLAND-BEAR-TRAP-SPARK-ARRESTOR-WALSCHAERTS-V/284064998531?hash=item422397e483:g:AgIAAOSwyjZfn4-J

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-SN3-BRASS-UPGRADED-OMI-2-6-0-C-S-9-OVERLAND-PAINTED-PILOT-SPARK-ARRESTOR/284064961568?hash=item4223975420:g:GGYAAOSw97dfn4M

Both a bit pricey.

Ned

[Jim Courtney]

The Overland C&S number 9 offered in Ned's post is the of the first run from 1985, total of 75 models imported.

The mechanism is poorly geared and results in a fast running locomotive. Details are also much cruder than the second run of 1990. The first version of C&S 22 suffered the same gearing and detail issues.

The 1990 run included early version (c.1912-1917) of C&S number 5, and 1930s versions of C&S 6, 8 and 9. The number 9 of this run came with a butterfly plow. The 1990 Cookes had much better mechanisms, and they run much better.

The Overland C&S 74 is a fine running model, though not near as nice as the PBL B4-Fs.

IMHO, Overland C&S locomotives are fairly priced at about $500.00 for an unpainted 2-6-0 or 2-8-0. The first run 9 and 22 are probably overpriced at $400.00.

[nedsn3]

Jim- Thanks, I didn't know that about the 2-6-0's. I have an OMI #74 and a PBL #75, and side-by-side have trouble discerning which has better detailing!
Ned

[Jim Courtney]

To avoid misadventures when trying to purchase Overland C&S 2-6-0s online, one needs to check the product label, located on the end of the green boxes:

First run 2-6-0s of 1985:
Number 9   = #1700
Number 22 = #1704 (1918 version, with old style tender)

The much better running and detailed 2-6-0 imports of 1990:
Number 5 = #1650 (early version c. 1912-1915, shotgun stack, no spark arrestor, old style tender)
Number 6 = #1651 (1930s)
Number 8 = #1652 (1930s)
Number 9 = #1653 (1930s, with butterfly plow)

Number 21 = #1654 (early version, c. 1913-1918, with Como spark arrestor, old style tender)
Number 22 = #1655 (1925 version, with Ridgway spark arrestor, intermediate tender).

And I agree with Ned, the C&S number 74 from Overland compares well with the PBL import. but you have to paint it and ad DCC / sound).

[Lee Gustafson]

Jim,

Do you have or know the numbers for the Overland On3 C&S 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 runs? Thanks for the Sn3 information.

Lee Gustafson

[nedsn3]

Not to belabor the point, but doesn't NWSL off a "kit" of sorts to upgrade the older 2-6-0's? I own one, but it's in Phoenix and I'm still in Massachusetts at our summer home. Hope it's a newer one! If not I'll update it.
BTW this is the absolute best most enjoyable and informative site. Thanks to all who take part in it and thanks for letting me join.
Ned

[Jim Courtney]

Here you go, Lee:

Every Sn3 brass C&S model that Overland ever produced. Source is a brass compilation put together by Stewart Locomotive Works over 25 years ago.






Edit -- Just realize that you asked about Overland's On3 C&S locomotives. I don't know that much about the On3 offerings, Mike Trent would likely be a help here. Brass Trains has a tab on their website for "Brass Guide' that also might be of help.

[Jim Courtney]

You're kinda correct, Ned.

Years ago Bill Adkins (who likes to take Sn3 locomotives apart and then reassemble them) put together a tutorial of sorts on regearing the OMI C&S 2-6-0s.

It is still available online: http://nebula.wsimg.com/fc53a62dca2b696733a61fba9d0ea674?AccessKeyId=08BEE66B97B387F20C0D&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Besides the NWSL motor and gearbox, you need special axle conversions -- Overland's builder, Anjin, used 2.5 mm axles and bearing boxes for the Sn3 C&S locomotives, the NWSL gearbox requires a 3.0 mm axle as I recall. I have all the parts but never got around to doing the conversion.

If I need to re-gear an OMI C&S locomotive today, I think I would try using a PBL gearbox (I have some from both Samhongsa and Boo-Rim). However, the need for special axles remains, needing a 3.0 mm diameter axle center for the main gear, with 2.5 mm ends long enough to pass through the sprung bearing blocks and into the driver centers.

BTW this is the absolute best most enjoyable and informative site. Thanks to all who take part in it and thanks for letting me join.

Folks here really aren't very cliquish -- all it takes is an interest in the C&S narrow gauge (or its predecessors) and Roper will greet you at the door!

[Jim Courtney]

Lee asked about the various Overland C&S model runs in On3.

As a distraction from the bizarre 2020 election that we're all living through, I did some research on the BrassTrains.com "Brass Guide" page and came up with this info:

On3 C&S 2-6-0s:

Overland produced the same Cooke 2-6-0 models in 1986, that they later produced as a second run in Sn3, in 1990.

Product number 0117, C&S 5 (early version c.1912), 1986, 40 models produced.
Product number 0018, C&S 6 (1930's version), 1986, 25 models produced.
Product number 0119, C&S 8 (1930s version) 1986, 25 models produced.
Product number 0120, C&S 9 (1930s version, butterfly plow) 1986, 50 units produced.

Here is an Overland ad from the January/February, 1987, NG&SL Gazette, for the Cooke 2-6-0 run in On3:




Overland produced the rebuilt Brooks 2-6-0s a couple of years later:

Product number 0170, C&S 21 (early version c. 1915, Como spark arrestor) 1990, 40 models produced.
Product number 0171, C&S 22 (1920s version, intermediate tender, Ridgeway spark arrestor) 1990, 60 models produced.

The Overland C&S 2-8-0 offerings differed from those in Sn3. While Overland produced Sn3 versions of C&S 60 (Rhode Island, B4-C), C&S 65/69/70 (Baldwin, B4-D), and C&S 74 (Brooks, B4-F), these were never offered in On3 by Overland.

But Overland did produce all three of the Baldwin B4-Es:

Product number 0112. C&S 71 (late 1930s version) 1986, 50 models produced.
Product number 0113, C&S 72 (late 1930s version) 1986, unknown number of models produced.
Product number 0114, C&S 73 (late 1930s version) 1986, 25 models produced.

As for C&S rolling stock produced by Overland in On3:

Product number 0079, C&S caboose 1000, 1987, 10 models produced.
Product number 0080, C&S caboose 1002, 1987, 25 models produced.
Product number 0081, C&S caboose 1003, 1987, 10 models produced.
Product number 0082, C&S caboose 1005, 1987, 10 models produced.
Product number 0083, C&S caboose 1006, 1987, 20 models produced.
Product number 0085, C&S caboose 1008, 1987, 10 models produced.
Product number 0086, C&S caboose 1009, 1987, 25 models produced.

Product number 0087, DSP&P/DL&G/C&S waycar (pre-1908 rebuild version, no cupola), 1987, 30 models produced.

Overland only produced two C&S passenger cars in On3, both were coaches (RPO 13, produced in Sn3, was never produced in On3).

Product number 0729,  C&S coach "70-73", 1988, 75 models produced.
Product number 0730,  C&S coach "74-76", 1988, number of models not recorded.

Note that Coach "70-73" likely only represents C&S 70 as a prototype. Coaches 71-76 all seem identical to Overland C&S coach "74-76."

This is all of the Overland C&S models produced in On3 of which I am aware.
Overland produced a large run of DSP&P Mason bogies in On3, but that is another story . . .

[Lee Gustafson]

Jim,

Thank you very much. It’s hard to believe that those Overland models were imported over 30 years ago. Makes me feel kind of old and makes the models over a quarter of a century old. Again thank you.

Lee Gustafson

[Mike Trent]

Hi Jim, looks like your OMI On3 list is pretty complete.

One thing I don't understand is why there should be any confusion over how many #72's were produced. There were 25. I've seen something, somewhere that there were 24 or 26 of them, but there were 25 unless there was some sort of mistake made by the builder that Tom may have discovered later. The pilot model for the B-3-E's was a #71. We would also receive a partially assembled model that would be used for parts in the event it was necessary. But I think that was also a #71, or would have been had it been complete.

An oddity about the #72's and #73's was that M.S. Models put the wrong smokebox fronts on all of them. The #72's have the right smokebox fronts for #73, and all the #73's have #72's smokebox fronts. I have had, over the years, two pairs of them, and switched them. I also am pretty sure there is at least one other pair that was changed. Tough to do, unless you had one of each locomotive. They are all extremely rare.

My first project with OMI was the Sn3 #74. I'm sure that was 1985. It was a beautiful engine, but didn't run very well out of the box.

I had always hoped that a run of B-4-F's would be produced in On3, but Tom didn't think it would be a good idea since the #74 had already been released by Sunset. The Sunset model can be essentially rebuilt, but it's a lot of work. Another project I'd hoped would have been produced was #537, but there just wasn't enough interest, and the cost would have been astronomical for it's time. That was also why Baggage and Mail #13 was never produced in On3.

Also, you are correct that of the #70-#73 series coaches that particular model was only accurate for #70, with it's straight roof profile over the platforms. It also has lamps mounted sideways, not inline. I don't know if that was correct for #72 and #73, but I do know that those two coaches had drop corner roofs like Coaches #74-#76.  

[Keith Hayes]

Mike, I talked with Darrel about this years ago. Don't get me wrong--I am really happy with what is available and my hat is off to the importers and model manufacturers who make all this stuff.

It makes sense to me that someone would import 9, 60, 71 and 74 in Sn3 (or any scale for that matter) as they all survived and can readily be measured.

Of course once you have 9, you are well on your way to the other B-3-C locomotives. And with 71, why not bring in 72 and 73, which both lasted to very near the end of operations. Of course 75 and 76 have different valve gear and the inboard cylinders, along with different domes and tenders. (PBL really did a fine job with the B-4-Fs, and each locomotive is truly an individual (except as Darrel pointed out the markers on the C&S 74 are really RGS issue.)

Since OMI imported 60 in Sn3, 58 was not much of a stretch, and creating 70 with an oil tender for the Clear Creek crowd must have led to 65 and 69, which also served to the end on the Old South Park.

This is realizing of course that really making each a unique model requires some research into the steam dome plumbing, the air tanks and some other jewelry items. In the 80s the demand was probably less than 10 units each in a market that demanded a minimum run of 50 or more.

At a certain point you saturate the market, and I recall models sitting on the shelf at Sundance for years for want of a buyer. Of course now they would be snatched up in a moment, like the PBL tank cars that seem to linger on sites for minutes before they are snatched up.  A few years ago, I saw a model of 71 painted as 72 on the shelf at Caboose in Lakewood. I paused for a moment and passed; now I wish I would have made the purchase, as it would have been an easy add to the roster. Oh, well.

Patience has rewarded me: I have just about all the locomotives and waycars needed for Leadville in the 30s. It would be nice to add 73 to the fleet, and of course 537 would be sweet. But for now I am happy and will be working on adding Bear Traps, DCC, sound and lights to two recent C-19 purchases. http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/The-Leased-D-amp-RGW-C-19s-on-the-C-amp-S-Narrow-Gauge-td7242.html

[Mike Trent]

Hi, Keith.

I thought Tom Marsh made a real good choice when he imported those other C&S engines, #60, #69, etc in Sn3. PSC had no intention of producing them in Sn3, so he was able to really expand what was available, not only at the time, but also in the future. Who knew that the golden age of brass locomotives was right then.

Mike

[Jim Courtney]

What I find fascinating is that all the Overland C&S offerings, in both On3 and Sn3, were imported in a narrow window of time, between 1985 and 1990. IMHO that had a lot to do with Harry Brunk's Up Clear Creek series in the NG&SL Gazette. The C&S was very popular in the 1980's and early 1990's, at least among the Sn3 crowd. No other C&S brass imports would occur after 1990, until PBL brought in the 3 Brooks B4-Fs in 2007. That's it for the C&S in Sn3. All of us C&S Sn3 folks have to fight for the same locomotives as they become available at estate sales.

Who knew that the golden age of brass locomotives was right then.


I agree, the early 1990s was an inflection point of sorts. Labor costs in South Korea began to rise almost exponentially about that time, as they had in Japan about 10-15 years earlier. While one might pay $400-600 for an unpainted Sn3 brass locomotive with marginal running characteristics, paying $800-1,000 for the same model was a bitter pill to swallow.

The brass importers that thrived thereafter (PBL in Sn3, W&R/Precision/Division Point in HO) began offering well engineered, smooth running models with factory paint jobs, and folks would pay $900-1,500 for them. PBL went further and offered factory sound and Jimmy Booth's custom weathering, with the "Foreground" locomotives bringing in $1,100-1,700 each. The Korean manufacturers that thrived in this new market were Samhongsa and Boo-Rim.

By the new millennium, most Sn3 folks had turned to modeling the D&RGW and RGS -- it was just easier (if a whole lot more expensive).

[Todd A Ferguson]

Jim,  it’s not that the models are necessary rarer or more valuable in 2020 than they were in 1990; your dollar is just worth much less and has less buying power.  I have a number of those PBL late 1990s to say 2004 models and they are nice but to some extent not still worth what I paid for them new.  I believe Bill also hurt the value of the K27s when he did the hybrid ones that were half the cost.  That upset some people...  Many of the locomotives I have are 1 of 10 or 1 of 12 as specific versions and paint jobs.  The issue for me becomes if I ever did sell any the odds of getting the same version back in many cases would be very slim.  So, I will likely die with them.  But the same holds true for some models I bought in HO in the mid 1980s.  In many cases if one is patient you can buy S/Sn3 structure models on the used market for quite a bit less than when new.  But some also fetch a premium too.  It’s an interesting market.

I had an interesting discussion with Bill about the brass market in the late 1990s.  He was starting to work with Boo Rim and was frustrated that Samhongsa had stopped building models and become a big in the auto parts supply I believe.  It was a changing market and I was impressed that Bill had come up with his third, third, third payment plan to fund new projects.  That worked very well I thought.

This also holds me back from going further into On3 C&S as finding the locomotives I would want could take a while...  Plus I have a lot of Sn3 already in place...

Todd

[Jim Courtney]

I agree with you, Todd.

The perceived value of many of our brass models have not kept pace with inflation.
And as you pointed out the brief "hybrid" craze undermined the value of some exquisite individual models.

I am upset with myself that I didn't keep collecting Overland C&S stuff as budget and availability allowed, back in the 1990-2010 period. It was not like I would be building a layout to run the stuff until I retired (as in just now).

Instead of developing the skill sets to re-detail, re-motor, re-gear, paint and weather the Overland brass models, I let myself be seduced into spending available hobby $$$s on factory painted and weathered RGS and D&RGW stuff with PFM sound (Bill Peters failed to see where DCC-sound was going in the hobby as a whole). So like you, I have some beautiful Sn3 "Foreground" locomotives, that I will have to disassemble to install Tsunami decoders if I ever really want run them. I doubt I can ever recoup what I paid for them, so they continue to sit in display cases.

Silly me, my interest was always the C&S!! All this other stuff just seemed easier, you know, ready-to-run.

[Todd A Ferguson]

Jim,

I guess I sort of liked the idea of engines that came ready to go to work, without a lot of work from me.  I did a lot of redetailing, remotoring, new gearbox, adding lighting, and painting of brass from about 1977-1987.  I finally realized that I was losing my hobby and satisfaction with it as the latest model I did went back to its owner. So I stopped doing it, even largely for myself too.  

I had been into both HO N&W and HOn3 in the 1970s.  I was never really happy with HOn3 running and the small size, lack of detailed rolling stock.  Most of my stock was wood and cast metal, pre plastic cars in HOn3.  I saw a PBL K27 in the early 1980s at a local show and was impressed at the detail. But the price was $700 I believe and too expensive for me at the time. And of course it was still a raw brass model.  A year or two later my wife bought me a PFM K27 for less than half the money.  I sold off the HOn3 but really didn’t get back into Sn3 actively until the mid 1990s.  That has been my primary interest along with some HO standard gauge.  Sometime in the early 1990s I remember looking at the On3 C&S 9 but it was over $900 new I believe.  To much for me raising a family.  I also do woodworking and photography as hobbies so money gets divided among them all.

So, here we are in 2020, I’m still living in a home I expected to leave over 10 years ago.  I find myself mostly interested in woodworking projects and photography when my son is drag racing.  I have a lot of Sn3 RGS stuff and a taste of On3 C&S stuff.  Practically, I should build a RGS layout in Sn3.  But I’m not sure I want to build a big layout, nor stuff that it seems every RGS modeler has built.  RGS would be a dozen locomotive, 125 cars deal in my mind.  On3 C&S would be a 4-6 locomotive, 40 car deal.  Probably based on Black Hawk, Forks Creek and maybe some Gilpin Tram.
But I’m not sure I have the drive to do the research to do a 1900-1912ish era C&S.  

Depending on choices I easily have 600 to over 1100 sq feet for a layout.  But sometimes I think a large space is a curse of its own.  We also have the Sipping and Switching Society HO modular group here in the Carolinas.  Last weekend they set up a 140’ x 140’ layout...that is something to see...  I have even thought about a Chalk Creek type layout in F scale.  A couple locomotives and 15 to 20 cars...interesting concept too...

I had a PBL Foreground II system in 1996 and was playing with DCC and sound too at the same time.  The PBL system was good and was definitely Bill’s baby.  DCC sound was not as good, but you could have different locomotives sound unique and separately controlled, definitely some things I loved.  So after a year or so of playing I decided to go DCC.  Being a computer guy I could see that the growth and capabilities of DCC were going to grow rapidly.  I had also talked with Bob Longnecker, who developed the PFM and PBL II system a few times.  He was an old IBMer and I was an IBM employee at the time.  It became clear that without Bob there would be no long term viability to the PBL system too.   Bob was the support system for any issue beyond installing the components in the locomotives.  I ended up selling the PBL system for nearly what I paid for it. I think I sold it in about 2000.  Since then it has been DCC but even that continues to grow and improve still.

I remember talking to Bill about DCC being the future and he hated that idea back then.  He said it was nothing but the old 1960s GE Astrak system.  Not true but how he saw it.  I used to mess with him at conventions sometimes.  When he would be operating the Chama layout and showing off the II capabilities he would sometimes get engaged in a conversation and set the radio throttle down.  I would sneak over and pick it up and and change from steam sound to a diesel.  So his beautiful foreground steamer would be sitting there idling away with diesel sounds.  My fun at his expense I guess.  But he always got back at me when I would suggest a model for production.  He would usually roll his eyes and tell me to go ahead and try it and let him know how it turns out.  I think one of the models I suggested was a full scale Devils Gate bridge in brass for the PBL 25 or 30 anniversary with the production limited to the 25 or 30.  I think it would have sold that many and it would have been well done by PBL.  It got the eye roll and the above statement I recall...

Todd

[Jim Courtney]

Yep, Todd, goals in this hobby change over the years.

All that collecting for 35 years while working full time, dreaming of the large retirement layout that I'd build.

As I will turn 70 next spring, I've checked the actuarial tables and realize that I have neither time left, space or money for the large layout. I also realized finally, that I'm more of a railroad model builder, than a model railroader.  But models of railroad equipment (or any vehicle) are not realistic without the kinetic component.

So, as the kitchen remodel winds down, I hope to start benchwork on a relatively simple around the room layout next week, to run whatever C&S trains that I can build in the time left to me.

And you did mention doing Gilpin Tram in On3 -- to get back to the purpose of the thread, there is an Overland Gilpin Shay number 5 currently listed on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/OVERLAND-MODELS-INC-GILPIN-SHAY-5-w-Grandt-Line-Drive-On2-KOREA-NEW-BRASS/224236424161?hash=item3435884be1:g:0hIAAOSwsFdfsfkp

[Todd A Ferguson]

There are about 6 Sn3 brass overland C&S locomotives on eBay.