C&S Brass, Any Scale, Listed on eBay

[Jim Courtney]

On the last page, Mike wrote:

They say anything is worth whatever someone will pay, and there is a lot of money floating around at the moment. Might be a good time to thin out the herd.

Well, I've been thinning my herd. As Keith likes to say, I've been taking distributions from my "PBL-401K", selling a lot of non-C&S Sn3 stuff that I've collected over the years. My wife has warned me, "If you die and leave me all this train stuff to deal with, I will kill you!"

In the past two weeks, I've sold four of my PBL second run RGS passenger cars, at an average of $926.00 per car. I paid Bill Peters $450.00 each back in 2009.

Today, a PBL D&RGW business car, from the same 2009 run, sold on eBay for $1,123.76!

The Dow and S&P may be setting daily records, but my PBL 401K is outperforming both YTD!

[Todd A Ferguson]

I have the John Barringer tour set and the other RGS business car.  Never have been out of the boxes.

Didn’t I read recently that the C&S caboose was a 1 of 10 or 1 of 25 model...

Todd

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 16, 2021, at 12:17 AM, Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Mike wrote:

They say anything is worth whatever someone will pay, and there is a lot of money floating around at the moment. Might be a good time to thin out the herd.

Well, I've been thinning my herd. As Keith likes to say, I've been taking distributions from my "PBL-401K", selling a lot of non-C&S Sn3 stuff that I've collected over the years. My wife has warned me, "If you die and leave me all this train stuff to deal with, I will kill you!"

In the past two weeks, I've sold four of my PBL second run RGS passenger cars, at an average of $926.00 per car. I paid Bill Peters $450.00 each back in 2009.

Today, a PBL D&RGW business car, from the same 2009 run, sold on eBay for $1,123.76!

The Dow and S&P may be setting daily records, but my PBL 401K is outperforming both!

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[Todd A Ferguson]

Not sure doubling your money in 12 years is a great return.  But better than most brass I guess.  Never looked at brass as a great investment.  Perhaps it is just that the dollar has lost half its buying power...since 2009.  Now if we had gambled on Bitcoin...

Todd

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On Apr 16, 2021, at 12:17 AM, Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Mike wrote:

They say anything is worth whatever someone will pay, and there is a lot of money floating around at the moment. Might be a good time to thin out the herd.

Well, I've been thinning my herd. As Keith likes to say, I've been taking distributions from my "PBL-401K", selling a lot of non-C&S Sn3 stuff that I've collected over the years. My wife has warned me, "If you die and leave me all this train stuff to deal with, I will kill you!"

In the past two weeks, I've sold four of my PBL second run RGS passenger cars, at an average of $926.00 per car. I paid Bill Peters $450.00 each back in 2009.

Today, a PBL D&RGW business car, from the same 2009 run, sold on eBay for $1,123.76!

The Dow and S&P may be setting daily records, but my PBL 401K is outperforming both!

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[Jim Courtney]

Todd,

I'm certainly not advocating brass model trains as an investment.

Just underscoring Mike's point that this is, for the moment, a seller's market. If one has reached that time in life, where it is time to divest oneself of all the model railroading stuff that has been collected over the years, this is a good time to sell.

[Todd A Ferguson]

I know you are not suggesting brass as an investment.  But I am not sure it is a great time to sell...unless you never want it back.  I may test your theory by offering my 5 and 60 in On3 for sale...

Todd

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On Apr 16, 2021, at 12:02 PM, Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Todd,

I'm certainly not advocating brass model trains as an investment.

Just underscoring Mike's point that this is, for the moment, a seller's market. If one has reached that time in life, where it is time to divest oneself of all the model railroading stuff that has been collected over the years, this is a good time to sell.

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[pizlinard72]

Good Morning
I guess the big question is how many people are interested to buy these models. I do not know how many people got into modelling C&S in the last few years. If there are more buyers than sellers, prices should hold or even increase. I think there is a reason why there have been  no new C&S locomotive models produced in the last 15 years. PBL, I believe was the last run. On3 probably much longer.
Over here in Switzerland there has been a continuous price slide in Om narrow gauge models over the last 5 years. Understandably, older people leave the hobby and want sell their whole collection. Too many models at the same time. Some of the models are now only 50% of what they were valued 7 years ago. I personally write down the model to 0 when I buy it. But Man, do I enjoy running them just a few feet after a stressful day of work.
One last thought. Where do you want your models to go? Some of the people from whom I have been able to buy a few pieces, mentioned that they know the model  is in good hands and apprechiated. I sure try not to disappoint them.
Have a nice week-end
Christian

[Jim Courtney]

I dunno, Christian,

It seems to me that C&S brass is becoming harder to find in all three scales. I'd like to think that Darel's blog and this Forum have sparked a renewed interest in the C&S as a modeling subject. The occasional Sn3 C&S brass for sale seems to sell more quickly and command higher prices than they did just few years back. To finish my locomotive rosters, I'm now looking for damaged models or poorly painted models that I can strip, repair and modify to specific eras.

I haven't seen an Overland C&S coach in any of the three scales offered in over a year now.

My recent profitable sales are probably one time successes. The PBL run of D&RGW and RGS passenger cars in 2009 are likely a special case. They are without doubt the best narrow gauge passenger cars produced in any scale. And since it was a one time project, there will never be any more, probably inflating the prices commanded in recent sales. On the other hand, PBL's "hybrid" run of  K-27s undermined the resale value of the earlier brass K-27s. I've sold two "foreground" brass K-27s and had to accept 75% of the original purchase price, even before commissions and seller's fees.

I'm not really selling stuff just to raise money. It is a way to force discipline on myself to actually finish a lot of C&S projects that I've started and hopefully build a modest layout in my retirement. That won't happen if I keep being distracted by D&RG and RGS stuff, no matter how beautifully crafted and finished.

The other issue is rising commission prices. If someone wants to begin collecting Sn3 locomotives, they tend to contact PBL first, to inquire about available models. PBL's recent commission rates for selling used brass is now pushing 25%. I think Brass Trains has commission rates that are similar. My eBay fees for my recent sales have been about 12.5%.

So keep an eye out for eBay C&S brass, and keep posting those things that you find!!

[Todd A Ferguson]

Jim, 

Yes there were quite a few of us who had shelled out $1,400 to $1,700 for PBL K27s that list out when the hybrids probably had 90 percent of the quality at half the cost.  I would have rather seen a hybrid consolidation done that might have helped grow the hobby of Sn3 some more with new modelers.

But I think the real sad thing was the On30 stuff that if done in On3 could have been a real boost to On3.  I hear the reasoning that it runs on HO track, yet we have seen On30 specific turnouts and track developed in the end.

Blackstone was perhaps the best revival of HOn3 in my lifetime.

Todd

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On Apr 17, 2021, at 4:36 PM, Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

 I dunno, Christian,

It seems to me that C&S brass is becoming harder to find in all three scales. I'd like to think that Darel's blog and this Forum have sparked a renewed interest in the C&S as a modeling subject. The occasional Sn3 C&S brass for sale seems to sell more quickly and command higher prices than they did just few years back. To finish my locomotive rosters, I'm now looking for damaged models or poorly painted models that I can strip, repair and modify to specific eras.

I haven't seen an Overland C&S coach in any of the three scales offered in over a year now.

My recent profitable sales are probably one time successes. The PBL run of D&RGW and RGS passenger cars in 2009 are likely a special case. They are without doubt the best narrow gauge passenger cars produced in any scale. And since it was a one time project, there will never be more, probably inflating the prices commanded in recent sales. On the other hand, PBL's "hybrid" run of  K-27s undermined the resale value of the earlier brass K-27s. I've sold two "foreground" brass K-27s and had to accept 75% of the original purchase price.

I'm not really selling stuff just to raise money. It is a way to force discipline on myself to actually finish a lot of C&S projects that I've started and hopefully build a modest layout in my retirement. That won't happen if I keep being distracted by D&RG and C&S stuff.

The other issue is rising commission prices. If someone wants to begin collecting Sn3 locomotives, they tend to go to PBL first, to inquire about available models. PBL's recent commission rates for selling used brass is now pushing 25%. I think Brass Trains has commission rates that are similar. My eBay fees for my recent sales have been about 12.5%.

So keep an eye out for eBay C&S brass, and keep posting those things that you find!!

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[Keith Hayes]

A Sn3 model of 76 is on Brass Trains right now. 74 appears to have come in the same lot and is already gone.

As I contemplate adding DCC, sound, lights and paint to my various models, I wonder if the value will increase to cover the installation cost?

This is my hobby and if my daughter can re
cover some of the cost of the models in the future,  that will be a plus. I could have bought a sports car, a second home, a fancy fly rod or expensive tools instead.

A seller needs a buyer and scarcity works to the seller's favor. Brass Trains, in creating a more open market and greater transparency can deflate prices in some cases and increase prices in others. In my experience,  patience pays off. Persistence helps too. In many cases we have a good idea how many models were made, but we have no idea of the attrition rate due to fire, flood, falls, or family just tossing boxes into the landfill.

Most curious to me are the PBL CONOCO tank cars. They seem to have the same appreciation rate as Bitcoin! I recall they were originally sold for $200-$250 and one was recently sold for a lot more. I hate to repeat the number in the event it was made up. In any case someone(s) really,  REALLY likes tank cars and money does not seem to be a limitation.

And if you are asking,  I am not the CONOCO culprit! Though my name is Keith,  and I seem to have a tank car problem! (Next up on CONX 14: I have been working on the model in SketchUp for a couple months,  but keep encountering issues.)

[nedsn3]

Increase in value? Maybe but don't count on it. I have a River Raison C&O 2-6-6-2 (masquerading as an SP locomotive) that I bought for $1000, with DCC, along with several other brass bargains. And truthfully, also some that I overpaid. I have a pathetic little Sn3 module but nothing for S wide gauge, so really against my goal I've become a collector. At 75 I recently spoke with my wife about maybe selling off some of this stuff. She said "don't worry, I'll manage it when I have to". So unless you're starving, my advice is don't worry about it and enjoy your hobby. 

Ned. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Hayes [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]>
To: nedsn3 <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2021 3:38 pm
Subject: Re: C&S Brass, Any Scale, Listed on eBay

A Sn3 model of 76 is on Brass Trains right now. 74 appears to have come in the same lot and is already gone.

As I contemplate adding DCC, sound, lights and paint to my various models, I wonder if the value will increase to cover the installation cost?

This is my hobby and if my daughter can re
cover some of the cost of the models in the future,  that will be a plus. I could have bought a sports car, a second home, a fancy fly rod or expensive tools instead.

A seller needs a buyer and scarcity works to the seller's favor. Brass Trains, in creating a more open market and greater transparency can deflate prices in some cases and increase prices in others. In my experience,  patience pays off. Persistence helps too. In many cases we have a good idea how many models were made, but we have no idea of the attrition rate due to fire, flood, falls, or family just tossing boxes into the landfill.

Most curious to me are the PBL CONOCO tank cars. They seem to have the same appreciation rate as Bitcoin! I recall they were originally sold for $200-$250 and one was recently sold for a lot more. I hate to repeat the number in the event it was made up. In any case someone(s) really,  REALLY likes tank cars and money does not seem to be a limitation.

And if you are asking,  I am not the CONOCO culprit! Though my name is Keith,  and I seem to have a tank car problem! (Next up on CONX 14: I have been working on the model in SketchUp for a couple months,  but keep encountering issues.)

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[pizlinard72]

Thanks Jim
I will look out and post what I find.
I see the issue with the hybrids. On the one hand, they reduce the price of brass but they might also convince other people to get into the hobby. That should keep some of the manufactures in the business.
This forum has certainly helped to keep C&S interest alive. That is really neat and with more people seeing the real thing in Como I hope that they will choose C&S to model.
I guess the points that others have made with now being a good time to sell are certainly valid. We have spent more time at home and also had more time for the hobby. Now we know what models would really be a nice fit to our existing fleet. Some are certainly on the lookout. That being said, I do not believe that brass can be seen as an investment. The fluctuations are just too big and the market too small. I would think that offering models in a forum such as this would give a fair price without the commission. Might be interesting to start a topic here listing prices paid for models. This could help transparency and setting prices when you want to sell.
I'm close to 50 now and I hope to have 25 years of model railroading left. However, who knows what then will be? Most likely we'll be able to relive Como and the ride over Boreas Pass on some kind of holodeck. Who would need models then... ;-)
Thanks for an interesting discussion.
Have a nice Sunday
Christian

[Chris Walker]

Though my name is Keith,  and I seem to have a tank car problem!


Keith,

Idaho Springs called and they want their CONX 8 back...... and some Switchman in Denver is off walking down the street, kickin' stones and muttering to himself.

 

[Keith Hayes]

NO! Never!

[Todd A Ferguson]

Hobbies should be about enjoyment in my view and the all cost money.  Some much more than others.  If you think trains are expensive try drag racing at a National or even regional level.  My son does that and he can spend more on it in a year or two than I have spent on all hobbies my entire life.

People just don’t realize how much disposable income is sitting out there in the world.  My dad has played in the art and antiques market for the past 40 years.  He knows people who have a million dollars sitting aside waiting for an American Indian chief’s blanket to come up for sale.  The thing eBay has done is make people realize that many things are not nearly as rare as once thought.

Go to a major drag race and you will see the place full of race cars that cost $100-$400k and motorhomes and trailers in the same or higher price ranges.  Last weekend I watched a ProMod racer crash a brand new car at the first race he had it out at.  Probably a $350k car pretty much destroyed.  He probably had insurance on it but still a sad deal.  I know one Midwest ProMod racer who budgets $50,000 per race...  just a lot of money in some pockets.

I have the curse of having 3 serious hobbies trying to use my hobby time and money.  Trains, woodworking and photography.  If I eliminated 1 or 2 I might be better off, but not so far.  The other thing we have to keep in mind is that production is very efficient for model trains today.  Even in Sn3 which is a niche scale/gauge, there is more made available than most can afford to consume.  And yet the numbers are shrinking at least if I look at the number of each Gazette issue printed.  It used to be 17k and now is down around 10-11k.  I find much Sn3 stuff can be found for less than it was originally sold for and so it goes...

Todd

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On Apr 18, 2021, at 3:09 AM, Chris Walker [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:


Though my name is Keith,  and I seem to have a tank car problem!


Keith,

Idaho Springs called and they want their CONX 8 back...... and some Switchman in Denver is off walking down the street, kickin' stones and muttering to himself.

 

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[SteveG]

Jim Courtney wrote

...
I haven't seen an Overland C&S coach in any of the three scales offered in over a year now.
...

FWIW, there's an HOn3 Overland offering I hadn't seen before--coaches 71-73. I did pick up one of the more common 74-76 coaches two years ago, for over a hundred dollars less.
I'm going to be selling off some Lambert moguls in HOn3 in the next couple weeks--I somehow wound up with more B3Cs than the C&S ever had, and decided to keep the non-Lambert ones to avoid having to 'Brunk' the Lamberts to lower them.

Steve Guty
Lakeway, TX

[Jeff Young]

I have one of each of the Overlands.

I don’t think I paid $300, but certainly over $200.  Less than $200 would be a great deal in my book; that’s usually what you see the (less detailed) Soho’s go for….

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Jim Courtney]

Although labeled as coaches 70-73 (Overland produced the same cars in Sn3 and On3), the car is only accurate for the coach #70. It was the only coach of the 70-76 series that had horizontal eave fascia on the clerestory roof, over the end platforms. All the others had eave fascia that were down-turning.

[Todd A Ferguson]

I recall buying one of the Soho coaches in HOn3 in the later 70s for $30...

Todd

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On Apr 19, 2021, at 6:00 PM, Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Although labeled as coaches 70-73 (Overland produced the same cars in Sn3 and On3), the car is only accurate for the coach #70. It was the only coach of the 70-76 series that had horizontal eave fascia on the clerestory roof, over the end platforms. All the others had eave fascia that were down-turning.

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[Jim Courtney]

Not an eBay offering, but I've been meaning to post these links for you HOn3 C&S folks.

Bill Davis owns American Scale Models and sells parts for brass models -- castings, gearboxes, trucks, etc. Most are surplus Overland Scale Models parts. Bill offers a couple of HOn3 C&S parts from past Overland runs:

Butterfly snow plow with pilot deck, flanger lift mechanism and other details, ready to install:
https://americanscalemodels.com/HO/HON3_DETAIL_PARTS?product_id=1135

Ridgeway Spark Arrestor, assembled, ready to install:
https://americanscalemodels.com/HO/HON3_DETAIL_PARTS?product_id=1134


And if any of you On3 C&S folks need a "Como" spark arrestor to backdate a locomotive:
https://americanscalemodels.com/O/O_ON3_DETAIL_PARTS?product_id=4043

But, you'll need to provide your own shotgun stack . . .

[SteveG]

Jim Courtney wrote

Although labeled as coaches 70-73 (Overland produced the same cars in Sn3 and On3), the car is only accurate for the coach #70. It was the only coach of the 70-76 series that had horizontal eave fascia on the clerestory roof, over the end platforms. All the others had eave fascia that were down-turning.

Yep, you're right (as usual). So that wouldn't have helped me at all, as I have two of the Soho #70s, and have already decided that a bending brake isn't the right tool for turning the roof edges down.  
Looks like surgery and a 3D printed roof is in the future for at least one of them.
FWIW, the listing now shows as sold, so the seller either got the listing price or an acceptable best offer.