Denver to Como

[Robert McFarland]

"Wood Bros" is Wood Bros Forwarding &Commisioning-one of several companies responsible for shipping freight along the DSP&P in the Leadville  boom years.There was a branch in Weston.The photo of the D&RG/DSP&P yards on display in the BV depot  shows this group of buildings.They are also shown in the 1882 Birdseye View of Buena Vista in the DPL photo section.The freight station appears to be the long light colored building where all the stacked bullion is.

[Chris Walker]

The siding for transhipping.

http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/5268/rv/singleitem/rec/81

[Chris Walker]

That Building to which you keep referring to John, wasn't present on the 1881 plan, being constructed according to Poor in 1898. EDIT: it opened on the 1st February 1891. And that building is a rectangle with Bay Window, is the preserved and relocated building on Hwy 24 some 6 blocks West of where it was built.

[Robert McFarland]

Wow!Is that the Wood Bros buildings and the curved sidings from a side view?

[John Droste]

Thanks Chris.
Poor has been wrong before. And that is understandable given the amount of face value information that he had to process.

A question that I have is, When was the architectural style in the BV depot and accordingly that of the odd section of wall in style?

I should know, perhaps I am wrong, I am not huge on American history. But is that style of architecture called Federation?

 If so, did not the Federation era of architecture occur at the time of Federation? I might be all wrong.

But going out there. If that building style belonged to either side, close to the Civil war period, then that is the era of the Houston & Texas Central. The H&TC shut down in the Civil war and restarted again. Is not the time after the war Federation? Forgive my ignorance.

 However, all said and done, Jay Gould did take over the H&TC, whilst taking over many railroads and expanding his empire.

Lets not forget these things. It is the primary focus of a railroad to move things. And in those days, building a railroad into a populated area would mean having to relocate buildings. Part of what the railroads were good at. Very easy to recognise when you look at logging railroads, or King being moved to Como.
 It is absolutely plausible that Gould in expanding his empire, would move unneeded buildings like a depot, or a roundhouse, or a coaling facility to the front of the line, Generally speaking and pun intended.

 If you were to take Poor`s book and just read all the references to Gould only, with his involvement in the CC and the DRG as well as the DSP&P, you will begin to read passages that are totally in line with what I am suggesting here.

And I may be wrong with much of what I say. But I am just putting it out there because maybe there is some truth in it too. And with the idea in mind, other bits of knowledge and understanding may just fall into place then too.
 That is how it worked for me.

[South Park]

  I am not tracking any reason for this obsession with a building being moved
to Como, to become the depot there.  Being a carpenter/builder/contractor, and
having been so for about the same 40 years as I have been studying the South
Park line, I noticed early on that the trim details of the Como depot I saw in
total neglect and decay in 1977 were the same, and probably of the same hand
as other pre-1880 depots built up the Platte Cañon.  The window header trim,
the carving, all sorts of details that say this was the work of a detailed plan, or
the work of a skilled carpenter, putting his "touch" on the buildings he oversaw
construction on.  Were all these buildings moved from Denver as well ?

  I am not saying a building could not be moved.  Obviously it could and still can
be done.  But what makes anyone think THIS building was moved (as opposed
to other buildings) ?  And in the grand scheme of historical knowledge, what
difference does it make ?

  I do a LOT of restoration work.  I see a neverending variety of evidence of
moved walls, altered floor plans, repairs, ....  the list is endless.  Some of it is
interesting to ponder.  Some of the reasoning is obvious.  Often times it is both
hideous and mysterious in reasoning and execution.  Morons with hammers ...
the world knows no shortage of !  I do not see evidence in any of the presented
photos and explanations that suggests a building was disassembled into tiny
parts and moved 100 miles over a mountain range, to be reassembled in Como,
and coincidentally, against all odds, looks near identical in details to depots at
Dome Rock, Estabrook, and Webster !

  And even if it was, what's the point here ? I am just not tracking.

[ComoDepot]

The Buena Vista Democrat in October 1890 reported progress on the new Depot.

Seems it opened on the 1st February 1891.

I have found a few errors in Poor, he obviously did not have access to some things that came to light subsequently, he also quotes original sources that seem no longer with us.

[John Droste]

Hi Mr South Park,
I also have spent my life, more as a cabinetmaker than a builder, Living in and around and doing restoration repairs and work on buildings such as the depot.
 For your sake, and for Roberts, I will do a quick gloss over again to show you why I believe the building to be the DRG station formerly.

And then YOU with all of your experience, can come and explain away the anomalies that I present to you. The questions that I had and over these last years found answers too. Friend.

But I also need to explain to Chris certain things too that he has brought up. And why the owner of the depot never answers my questions or lends help to me. Only to divert attention away from the depot or the subject matter when things get close to the bone.

You have thrown down the gauntlet which was a big mistake, my friend. I think you have indicated to me in the past that you do not see me that way, However.
I will give you something new to deliberate over through your summer. I am in the middle of work now. Will be in touch overnight.

Maybe in the meantime, reread some of my posts. Or just read them for the first time.

[South Park]

  I have read much of your presentation.  Still,  I am not tracking the
"why?" of the obsession.  Even if documents were found, showing the
building was moved as you suggest, so what ?  I am way less interested
in the speculative case presented on a moved building as I am in why
you are presenting it, .... or walking it back to the base, why do YOU
care ?

  Of all the massive amount of history of this line, this is what you choose
to stim/obsess on.  I am not tracking.  

[John Droste]

SP,
Thats okay.

Often ponder your question myself.

I guess I am just fascinated in why things were the way they were, realising that what others are saying is wrong. I had to find the answers.

Sometimes in fact, I think the spirit of the Depot is so pissed off at what happened, that it is using me to explain.
Would like to get that monkey off my back. Against my better nature, I am going to have to do that.

[Chris Walker]

Jimmy,

these additions to this saga are very welcome and I'd like to thank you for posting such in your time.  It is very much appreciated by me.

[Chris Walker]

Thanks ComoDepot,

I was under the impression that the Chaffee County Courthouse and Gaol was built around the 1890 mark, which led credence to Poor's 1898 date as there are several photos showing the DSP&P sidings bare of facilities.  Just where I got that impression I can't say, I guess I should have re-read the Mineral Belt V-1 again.  It was Suzy's contact about the completion date April 12,1883 that got me wondering.

So in re-cap, the final Depot would have been built by the DL&G instead of the C&S.  Was Gould heavily involved with the imminent U.P. melt-down in 1893?
B.V. sure did rapidly expand in the first few years of the 1880 decade.

[John Droste]

Last time I renewed my DSP HS membership I said I felt like I was only subscribing to the B&L as it seemed that I had nothing to contribute. The reply came saying that although there was nothing that I could contribute, my funds were much needed and so I was considered a member of the Society.

 So to answer your questions SP, Chris, and Robert, I will do it all in one, referencing each of you as need be.

Ironic, that the day after I came back here to explain the boxcar wall, the article above appeared in the local paper. The conservator is working on a bit of wallpaper.


Robert, you were asking why it had to be the DRG station. Will skip through some photos to remind you. Maybe first though, you have been reading my posts ever since I joined the DSP yahoo groups. You, and others will remember a story that I brought with me. I will repeat that once more, from memory. And this time now that I have put the pieces of the puzzle together, we can cross reference the two together.
 I said six to eight years ago that I had read an article about Como online, before getting involved with any groups;

 That when the Como depot was built, a sleeping quarters was built into the back of the office for somebody who had to get up at all hours of the night to right out papers for all the trains that were coming and going at all hours of the night. I now understand that the name of that persons role as being the Dispatcher.
 Also I said, There was reason given for why the Dispatcher had to be set up in the Depot but I could not remember those reasons. Now I recall and understand why. It was because the hotel or hotels next door were closed for renovations. And the Dispatchers residence had not been built yet. This coincides with my becoming aware that the timbers used to cover the TOB hole in the North Wall and used to cover gaps in the ceiling and walls in the baggage room were recycled architraves from the Gilman hotel. Not to mention also that the actual windows were used in the end walls of some kind of car for the Switchman's shanty.
 Two photos below show the architraves, which appear nowhere else in the building.

 Just take note of the hole in the wall SP near the window, SP.


 Been over the above photo many times before, SP. Please answer these questions.
Why are these three pieces of wood, an upside down piece of wood that would normally go under a window sill, with the bead that fits up against the window sill still attached, A piece of architrave like used in the baggage room still with a mitre on the end, and a piece of bolection mould similar to but not the same as the bolection bead in the opposite window, why are they attached to the wall before corner bead was placed on?
 Could it be because they are covering a hole like in the baggage room wall? They are at the exact same hight!
And the office/ticket room wall too? Because there is a hole there as well.
 Now I do understand that when the Depot was first built in Como, there was not a TOB board in use.
However, if you check carefully, you will see that the holes are at the exact hight of the cog bracket for the TOB. And check as carefully as you care to, the cog bracket is just small enough to pass through the holes. Why. With all of your building knowledge, explain what those holes were for.

Explain why there is a piece of wall from an entirely different building there in the north wall?

 So Robert then, you understand why I say the DRG station building now?
I understood that the depot that was before the Como depot stood end on to the track. A rarity. But here is a close up, showing the TOB where it would be expected to be.


So then, to continue with the sleeping quarters in the back of the office. I think Chris, you thought I was making reference to the Switchman sleeping in the shanty. Was going to just leave it alone at the time.
 Heres a photo of smoke pouring out of the Dispatchers sleeping quarters chimney.

 And this is why David has always been on the defensive of me. Never able to acknowledge anything that I ever said.
Below is a photo of the Sleeping quarters before David ripped it out. Went on the fire with the vestibule, I believe.

The lower ceiling sat on the top edge of the boxcar wall. Hessian cloth was still hanging from it. You will know SP, just as well as I do, intuit era they did cover the ceilings in bedrooms with material to stop dust from dropping through. Had that thick wallpaper stuff over the cloth/hessian! I wonder what those pieces of card were for originally.

 So Robert, you will also recall in my story that trains that arrived in the middle of the night had to stop outside of town and cover up the headlamp because Como was a tent city and the bright lamp disturbed peoples sleep. Each time I think of that I am reminded of that Mike Myers movie when they are in the tent spilling the bag of potatoes. But the story also went, what I had read, there were three light bulbs in Como at that time. One in the engine house boiler room, where the electricity was generated. And there was one for where the dispatcher wrote out his orders and one to show him the way. Meaning, A light between the sleeping quarters and where he wrote out the orders.

I think this room, the small room called the Oil room in the baggage room was that room. Hence the little cabinet on the wall for orders.
 But the thing is SP, you know how buildings are structured. The dividing walls fit inside the walls running the length of the roof line. And they help stopping the roof collapsing the walls inwards. So my question is to you, because I am going to point out the joins in the dividing walls, why is the entrance wall to this room exactly half the internal width of the depot?
And the return wall in the photo below is rough cut and covers a join in wall sections in the outside wall.

There is a join that you have apparently never noticed. With the entrance wall being a half wall, does it not indicate that this wall was here from the time the building was reassembled in Como? In fact, the outside wall had never been even painted in Como, has it? Because if it had of been, the rough cut side wall of the oil room would also received a coat of paint. If you have an alternative explanation, I mean not just a dismissive garble, I would like to hear it. Please?
The boxcar wall of the sleeping quarters, where the cladding extends through to the ceiling, the paint line of the cladding is up and down across the room. Meaning, that that wall has never been painted after the wall was assembled. Another unpainted wall.
 
 I will go to another post to continue.

 

[John Droste]

SP, Speaking of half walls again. You can see through the doorway the horizontal cladding behind the vertical cladding to the outside.
That is what I was talking about the other day, saying that the ticket window had been installed in the wall after it had been originally built.
And on this side half wall, no horizontal cladding. Just a filled in window or something. Care to explain this in a rational way?




Care to explain why the wall above had a hole for a flue pipe filled in when there was not a chimney there? Actually, on the other side there is a patch in the ceiling where a chimney went through. But not in Como.
And the other patch?


Above is a photo of the same wall from the other side. Can you see the join in the wall? The other side does not show the join. Can't even explain that myself. Double clad like the ticket window? But then why the infills on the other side?

Heres the plan below SP.
Notice that the oil room wall with the doorway, (green wall above) is half the internal width of the depot?

Notice in the plan above too SP, the boxcar wall is half an internal wall distance from the back of the depot. That is because on the south side of the second addition, as you knew it, there is a join in the wall. Check it out if you are ever allowed. The boxcar wall is a structural wall to hold the outside walls together, on the south side.
Below from the outside is that wall. You can see from the window surrounds that this section of wall is from the original DRG station building. Same dimensions as the window to the left.


Looking inside the sleeping quarters after it was gutted out. Another join in the wall on the north side.

I hope you are still alert SP. The section of wall to the left of what you had not noticed before is a wall section which should be running north/south in the office. The length of that wall from the join into the odd section of wall to the join you see before you in the north wall is the same distance as the width of the office, you will find. I hope that you got that builder friend?
Concentrate now. The section of wall running east from the join AND the section of wall extending east from the join in the wall where the boxcar wall meets, put those two pieces together and you have another half wall section. The same distance as the distance from the boxcar wall to the back of the depot. The same distance as the length of the Oil room wall.

I do need to finish SP but I hope you are now aware of some of the joins in the wall that you had not previously noticed.
And obviously then, I hope you realise that where other internal walls connect with outside walls there will be connections there too.
 The join that I pointed out in the outside wall of the Oil room is indicative that that piece of wall is the same length as a half wall also.

 Check it all out, if you are allowed.
Chris, I hope I have explained the sleeping quarters adequately?
Robert, I hope you understand now why it was the DRG station that it came from? If not, go back and read my previous posts on the matter.

Finally, really, I have moved on. I only thought of the boxcar wall and wanted to mention it.

I do not care much for you people. You have been very rude to me.
I have lost interest in modelling the DSP for same reason.
If I do think of something, I will come back and mention it. Like the door entrance to the DSP hotel. It was to the far left of the original construction. That would have allowed for a staircase with return landing to the south side entering the doorway. That could have been done without interfering with the 98.5 foot long hallway behind the bedrooms upstairs. Just for what its worth.

[Mike Trent]

John, I don't believe you have ever shared any information about yourself. It might help us put things into better perspective if you could tell us a little about yourself. Your background, profession, and how you came to be interested in the DSP&P, and the Como Depot in particular. We've seen some of your model work, and we know you live outside the area, but that's really all we know about you.

You have brought an amazing amount of detail and information that has pretty much been unnoticed by the great majority of people who have read about and/or visited and studied the area and the depot itself. Some of that information is clear, that the depot has been fabricated from available material from the time is now inarguable. Where some of it may have come from and how the depot has evolved over time probably still seems to some or most as speculative.

I, for one, would be interested in seeing you construct a timeline of the depot itself, showing when and how much of the information you have gathered fits in a designated sequence. It's really hard to follow some of your posts and try to keep track of everything without a timeline.

By doing this, even as a starting point which can be altered, shifted, and otherwise modified as things continue to unfold, it will be much easier to bring understandable clarity as you share your thoughts. It will also allow areas where there may be concern or disagreement to be debated separately without taking anything away from areas in which there is agreement and support.

You are obviously frustrated with the lack of agreement or support or even discussion with this issue, lets see if we can find a way to make it easier to let that happen. You will have to lead this, but you are going to have to find a way to do it in a way that is easier to follow. It will also lay groundwork for eventual publication in an article or other document of your choice, so it won't be a waste of time.

Mike Trent    

[South Park]

  Well stated, Mike.

  I do not wish to "bash" any efforts to build a historic understanding.

  I DO wish to be part of it, in any way, including critical thinking on
the material provided and the method delivered.

  Were it proven, even substantively, that the Como depot were delivered
on the wings of parakeets from a sub-orbital moon of Jupiter, I am good
with that.  Let's just present speculation as speculation and look for clues
as an interested group to turn such theories into verifiable, known facts.

[John Droste]

Mike,
way past my bedtime. Probably should wait until the morning to reply.

About me? johndrostewoodwork.com will give you an indication.

I have a Facebook page. You can see my private life there. I mix it with my work.
I live in Warrnambool, Victoria, Australia
Three kids. All did well at uni. I had no opportunity for an education, starting work at 14. That must show with my literacy levels. However, education comes second to a good mind, which I think I have.

I do not know why I became interested in railroads. May seem weird but I was practising meditation and yoga, working on connecting consciousness to others on a spiritual level, in my own type way. I am very good at picking up on peoples vibrations.
I am agnostic but once again, aware of peoples spiritual energies. I say this because while I was doing this, that was when my interest grew in building a railroad. And I sincerely do wonder if the spirit of the depot has channeled me to expresss itself. A very tenuous connection.
My desire was and still is to build dual gauge. I don't know where that comes from either. I have no idea what brought me to Como. Really.

You mention timelines of the depot?
It must have been moved around the time soon after the Grand Union Station opened.
A period of time must have taken place before the roof was altered in Como or the patches in the roof and the altered office roof would not show any contrast.



From my observation, I think the second none photo of the depot is what 1885? when the Dispatchers residence has appeared, and yet in that photo the contrast in the roof almost seems greater than in the first 1883 photo.

Going on that, I would say that the alterations and first moving of the depot did not occur until very close to the time the 1883 photo was taken. Off coarse, after the alterations occurred, both the newer and older sections of roof would still be fading. But you would have thought that the newer sections would change shade faster. Hope you get my drift.

From early on, I suspected that the depot had been moved more than once, looking at all the patchwork inside. That turned out to be correct.
You guys have people in your midst that know a great deal about the history of the first years of the DRG Denver station history. Doubt they will fault my assertions or they would have come forward.

Not sure if I have shown this or expressed it enough. Close examination of these four photo links should reveal that they were all taken on the same day.
The top photo shows the DRG station. It is believed to be dated 1882 which can not be correct because the grounds of the Union Station are still in a construction site state. Although the station tower is completed.
It looks like a really hot day. There are no workers on station grounds. Only it seems the photographers buggy.
If you guys have a holiday on July 4 then I would date the photos taken on a hot July 4 1881.

And I don't know my locos well but if that train with the A frame flat car is preparing to move a building and all of my suspicions are correct, it would have to be a  South Park train.
And so because the CC depot was pulled down within days of the station tower being completed, logically the CC depot would be the first one to go.
Two a.m. here. goodnight.

http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/88627


http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/84036


http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/84035


http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/88640

[ComoDepot]

One thing I have not been able to find out about the BV Depot is why, 1890 was before the Silver Crash but the line was not financially good so why did the spend the money on a new Depot, I assume there was a reaf need. And they built it in the winter and if it had been planned you would have thought it would have been a summer project.

Early Como is a bit of a mystery, the Depot well it is here and you can come and look see.

There is mention of a Depot here when the first train arrived at was what what was then called Lechner.

Poor from memory states that the line to the upper mines was put in the following year which made no sense to me, the Fairplay Flume says it was put in the following month which does. The lower mines were connected later and that probably was the following year.

So we have the ICC report that mentions the original rectangle and 2 extensions which ties in with what is here.

We have the 1883 Mellon taken from Lechner Ridge, now Bob was able to get a scan of the Cabinet Card which we have blown up and is in the Depot. Shows the full scope of Como at the time, I would have expected to see many more non Railroad buildings by this time but Como was still a small village.

Maybe we will find an earlier photo. Probably not.

Neil Reisch who passed away a couple of years ago was my oldest connection with the Depot, his father was the Agent in the late 1910's and at that time they lived in Blue house up by the Grade School. His father bought Mac Poor's old cabin many decades later.

The only person I have spoken to who remembered the Depot during the Railroad was Andy Anderson but this was over 50 years after the early period, even his Grandfather arrived in Como after 1883.

[John Droste]

Thank you David for those words.

The moment my eyes dropped on Mike Blazek`s drawings of Como I thought, This railroad has been overlaid over an existing town.
So Lechner it was.
 And then the Italian DSP stone masons came and renamed the lake, subsequently then the town.

Here is a proposition to consider. Given that the town was already existing.

I have looked at the basement wall north wall of the Gilman hotel, Pacific hotel by that time. There is something incongruous about that whole situation to me because the right of way at that point seems at least to be high above the natural ground level. If not, the builders of the Gilman would have had to do large excavation work right up to the "main line" entering the town. And you would have to agree then that this is unusual.
 Could it be then now that what we call the Gilman was in fact already a hotel there?
I have pointed out that the DSP hotel, the central initial part could not possibly have been extended on the back. Because the whole lower ground floor was one open dining area. And measurements reveal that the dimensions too, are very similar in size to the Gilman. Photos too.
So looking at all of this, what I describe, could it be that the Gilman hotel (as we currently believe it to be) was already there when the railroad arrived? And that the initial constructions of the DSP hotel was in reality the Gilman being constructed? Only to have a name change from Gilman to DSP hotel along the way.
 Its just a thought.

 Regarding the depot. I have followed the chain of events to far. I have unraveled to many pieces. I have looked and looked and looked at anomalies, and searched, until I found reason for the anomaly. I have had to repeat this process over and over again down the line, until I had a clear picture. It was like a jigsaw puzzle without a picture of the what the finished puzzle would look like. But eventually, as the pieces began to fall in place a picture began to emerge. After that, I had an idea of what pieces of the puzzle I should be searching for, and new understandings came faster.
 I have pointed out that several walls of the Second addition actually come from the building that was the original depot. Understanding this, I mean the comprehension of that, without being rude, brings about the understanding that the whole building was built at once. Right down to the Switchman's shanty. Because the floor joists of the shanty  were from the same building that the office was built upon. And part of the baggage room.
 And the windows and architraves that were removed from the Gilman? when the two hotels were joined together were used to cover the TOB hole, patching work in the baggage room, and in the shanty. Its amazing in a way because the "builders" simply nailed the architraves onto the walls and ceiling as they picked them up. They did not even go as far as cutting off the mitred ends.

 Something that I wanted to say to you David, in front of everybody.
 I know you are a decent person. I know that you have the best intentions for the depot and its future. And I feel that you have regarded as your nemesis. When I arrived in the Yahoo group, talking about the sleeping quarters, I did not know it at the time but you felt threatened because you began to realise what you had done in the sleeping quarters. It was a mistake. We all make them. Mate, that tooth had to come out sometime. So hopefully the pain will go away now.
 I really really don't want to be thought of as being here to give you shit. I am a better man than that. You deserve better than that. That is how I see it.

 Lastly, I have spent innumerable hours searching for the article that I had read about Como without finding anything. No doubt the same article must have explained the doorjambs of the roundhouse. Maybe I was wrong about the specific loco involved but I am very confident even today, that I was not mistaken. But that can pass. Maybe I was wrong too.

I will check, find out when the CC depot was taken down. I have it in the Kenton Forrest book. That may help with working out a 'timeline.'

[John Droste]

What I was saying about the Gilman is a nonsense because the entrance to the hotel is at ground level-track level.
I should have thought of that.