Denver to Como

[John Droste]

I understand Jeff. They used to call it Circling the wagons.

[Chris Walker]

John,

I see by your comment in your latest post >I do wonder if the wall of the Switchman's hut with the sliding door actually came from a remaining piece of the boxcar walls too.    that you still believe there was a sliding door on the Yardmasters Hut addition.  

Please review what I said in this post http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Denver-to-Como-tp6568p9738.html and have a look at the photographs clearly, do you not see the step EDIT:threshold in the doorway, right by the seated boy and his lunch offering for Dad?

[ComoDepot]

Chris the Switchman's Shanty was not on its own foundations, I assume the rectangle Depot was built first, the platform added and the Shanty added later.

It was  basically a lean to on the south wall.

When they removed the platform it seems they cut the platform away leaving the Shanty standing on the last part of the platform.

When the track was removed water flowed underneath this and eventually c1960 the Shanty collapsed.

[John Droste]

Wrong David.

If you go back through my posts and find the older plans of the depot you will find that the floor of the Switchman's shanty is 3& 3/4" wider than the office. That is because the same floor joists that were used under the office were also used to frame the floor of the shanty, using ex 2" timber to frame it together. Hence the extra width.
Keep in mind too that the cladding on the north wall was double layer and so effects dimensions.

Same floor joists were used in a section of the baggage room, (photo below).



Your mate sent me this photo because everybody, including the builder was wondering WTF was going on here. I am showing you.

The freight room floor came from the original depot. A robust floor was required there. The walls around the freight room came from the building next door.

But back to the shanty. With the roof being from the original building, and the floor being made wider from the framework, the overhanging roof became lesser than the overhanging roof on the rear of the office. "Second extension" you call that!

 The four original end half walls of the DRG depot are ONE, the section of north wall that had the TOB hole covered over by sections of window surround from the Gilman`s windows being removed to join the two hotels. Two, the section of wall with the doorway that enters the oil room. It would have once had a window above. Yes? Three, the section of wall in the internal corner of the "Second addition" (photo below) That is why it has the same window surrounds as the what? "First addition"?  And four, the last section being cut into two unequal length pieces. One of those pieces extending from the dividing boxcar wall to the end of the building, the other piece returning from the same end of the building but in the north wall. Go back and look at my photo of inside the sleeping quarters again. You will identify that join.
 And once again, the panel to the left of that join was a crossways wall in the building that was not the DRG depot.

So then, as far as the north wall goes, made up of four sections of wall, the last remaining piece is the one from an entirely different building.
 



And that photo shows the TOB cog bracket that is directly in line with the three pieces of window surround in the photo below.



It is a shame that you removed that bead from the top piece of wood David. That piece of wood sat underneath the window sill in the Gillman although now it is upside down. The bead that you removed, an important piece of history, would have butted up under the window sill. You can see similar throughout the depot although the shaping is different.

At the moment, I think this is how it all went together. Maybe getting down to the finer detail, I may have got something wrong. Its a journey, I am getting there.

Just remember too, observing that the timbers for the telegraph wires board were fixed even before the corner bead, should not have had function until the depot was moved away from the hotel.

[John Droste]

And here is a photo pf the floor of the shanty.



And another one.



And the old drawings again so you can study and compare the shanty with the "Second addition".
And so you can see also that the angle of the walls was not any particular angle. Just the angle where two caboose or way car ends would meet, point to point. You should know the dimensions of the width of those cars. Mostly three inch thick walls.





As I mentioned in the last email when comparing measurements. You need to allow for that extra layer of cladding on the north wall. Which makes it one inch wider above the two end pieces (Ex 2") of the floor joists used in the shanty.

[Chris Walker]

Wasn't mentioning the foundations this time around,  David, was only pointing out to John about his perceived "sliding" door and the lack of such. ad infinitum.

[John Droste]

Thanks Chris,
You don't think that maybe it was easy to alter the doorway to a double door because it was originally possibly a wider opening? An opening for a sliding door?
 That is what I was trying to get at, but with less words.

 I remembered that there was a discussion on this in the past, regarding your contribution.

jd

[Chris Walker]

FWIW John,  I can't say why there would be the need to have a sliding door for an office, only the luggage rooms have those in every station building I have known. A lot harder to seal a draughty sliding door in a room for human occupation not baggage and assorted large freight items.  

Also at a time when every Freightcar counted and Waycars weren't long in service, you are suggesting that a new Station building be built from these 2ndhand used ends and sides.  I just don't get that, just based on what, a resemblence?

[John Droste]

The resemblance, is just part of a bigger picture that I have been explaining for many years now.

Gould, according to Poor`s book, was buying into the DSP&P even before the line had reached Como in 1879. He was buying in with stock and equipment, but Poor states that it is not known just what stock or equipment that was.
 However, having a long history of swallowing up railroads into his own, were that equipment to have come from older railroads, you might see how he could use that equity to be buying into more railroads, such as the DSP&P. As a result for example, the two boxcars joined together.
 Rolling stock wore out, was damaged and always reached a point where it was no longer viable to repair for its natural purpose.

Talking about Gould, I will just remind you of a few things. In 1881, the period that I am saying the DRG depot was brought to Como, Gould had control over the DRG because they had reneged on a contract with the UP.
 Also, the UP had funded the construction of the Colorado Central. They were not interested in the CC as a railroad. They only wanted the coal that it could provide for operations elsewhere.
 So when it came time for the CC depot to be cleared away in Denver, you might just think that Gould might say, " I will have that depot back now thank you, since I provided it in the first place."
 That CC depot came down within days of the Union Station tower being completed. Three timber stations under Gould`s control, redundant, as they were.
 And therefore, a plausible reason for the section of wall in the North wall in the Como depot.

 And lets not forget the oil loading platform in Como. Almost as large as the platform of the depot. It must have been near the engine house for practical purposes. No location given in the Como workbook by Blazek. He missed that! It must have been on the mainline, south side of the water tank. Also then, the most logical place to put a depot. On the flat and in between the leads to the roundhouse.
 So we are then speaking of four redundant depots.
 Now I have never studied the history of Buena Vista but I feel very confident that around the time after the new Como depot was reassembled in Como then in the summer of 1881, something was just beginning with the depot set up in BV.
 Because looking at the photos of the BV depot restoration, I can see that that building was added onto. And part of that building matches the odd section of wall in the Como depot. And you cannot say it is not there. It is there. And David can not say that the north wall, indeed the entire depot is not made up of sections, because he knows. And he can not say that I am wrong about the boxcar wall either. Because he will have had his tape measure out today and he will know, now. Instead, as I predicted, he will say nothing!

 But back to the DRG station for a moment. The DRG always sold there tickets in town, according to the city directories. So they would not have needed the big ticket window perhaps that is in the Como depot now. Probably all they did need was the second, smaller ticket window between the passenger room and the baggage room, as it was called. In Como, it was really the battery room and you can see that from the shelf battens on the walls next to the builder where he is standing. Also from the spent battery terminals scattered around under the floor in that area.
 The BV depot was missing its ticket window. They new where it was, but it was gone. So they copied one from the Como depot because the size was the same.



And this photo shows where they discovered that the depot BV depot was in fact added too.


And this image below is from the part of the BV depot that matches the odd section of wall in the depot.



What I am suggesting, what my theory is is that this ticket window which is in the Como depot, actually came from that part of the BV depot that has a matching panel in the Como depot. Hence the two ticket windows in Como.

I suspect that the BV depot was constructed from the former CC depot and the former depot that was in Como.
I have gone to lengths to show in the past that the section of wall with the ticket window in Como was double clad. Indicating that the ticket window was installed at a later date.

I think I know where the CC depot came from before Gould set it up for the CC to use.



The ticket window is more in keeping with the odd section of wall in the north wall.


One of the railroads that Gould had swallowed up was the Houston & Texas Central. Its flag resembles the corbels of the ticket window.

Will just leave off Chris with a link showing the DRG station in Denver again. The other building that came to Como with it will be on the far side. As I have explained how the floors was utilised now, you can understand why the DRG station looks shorter.
What I want to show you is the flat car above the DRG station (that was only located and used here for a very short time.) The flatcar in the middle of the narrow gauge train has an A frame on it. That is how the panels of the buildings would have been transported.

http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/88627

Should also show a picture of the flag of the H&TC too, so people will know what I am driving at.



Always, I am happy to enhance on anything that I am talking about if anybody seeks a broader understanding. Ask.

[Chris Walker]

Always, I am happy to enhance on anything that I am talking about if anybody seeks a broader understanding. Ask.

John,  I wondered if you would clarify which Buena Vista Depot you're writing about?

Now I have never studied the history of Buena Vista but I feel very confident that around the time after the new Como depot was reassembled in Como then in the summer of 1881, something was just beginning with the depot set up in BV.
 Because looking at the photos of the BV depot restoration, I can see that that building was added onto. And part of that building matches the odd section of wall in the Como depot.
what my theory is is that this ticket window which is in the Como depot, actually came from that part of the BV depot that has a matching panel in the Como depot. Hence the two ticket windows in Como.
 The BV depot was missing its ticket window. They new where it was, but it was gone. So they copied one from the Como depot because the size was the same.

And this photo shows where they discovered that the depot BV depot was in fact added too.

I suspect that the BV depot was constructed from the former CC depot and the former depot that was in Como.


From what I have read ... the DSP&P reached Buena Vista first Mar 3 1880 and for some reason just sat and waited.  The presence of the fabricated Harp Switchstands in the early photos prove that the South Park built that yard trackage, the D&RG used cast Harp Switchstands.  I am not the only one who has noticed/mentioned this.

B.V. Townsite Company Hotel and Depot built Jan 1880, the  D.SP&P. owned half of this company, the D.SP&P. and D&RG pooled their interests together in that.

Just which part of the building was used as a Depot isn't mentioned, it could be either of the two single-storey buildings shown in these photographs, more likely the one on  the right adjacent the Maintrack.
DPL Z-5408

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/72005/rec/1

http://www.narrowgauge.org/images/tkcok/m00102.jpg


The B.V. Townsite and Land Co Building (on right in above photo) sits to the North

http://www.narrowgauge.org/ngc/graphics/tkierscey/dspp/dspp0027.jpg


Note that these buildings and the Hotel all have alternating stacked corner detailing, something also used on Colonial era buildings here in NZ.

Sometime in the early to mid-1880's the D&RG constructed this Depot, a frame version of the stone Salida Depot.  I have never read anything that mentions specifically that this was a joint D&RG/DSP&P Depot but suggest that it was as there is no mention of any other Depot in use.



Salida Centennial Archive


Some wider views of Buena Vista from the same location showing progression.
DPL X-7264

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/5268/rec/1

EDIT :  The Chaffee County Courthouse in Buena Vista was constructed in 1882 -83 and completed on April 12,1883 for a cost of $25,000. My thanks to Suzy Kelly in B.V. for this info.

Additionally the Map in Denver, South Park & Pacific. dated 1884 revision of trackage shows the added South Park siding East of the new Courthouse location.

DPL WHJ-766

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/41073/rec/2

The B.V.  C&S Depot was built new; in Denver, South Park & Pacific. Poor states C&S built Depot in 1898.  EDIT: it opened on the 1st February 1891. This building was later moved onto the main thoroughfare through B.V.  Alterations John points out, could have been made at that time or in the buildings subsequent history of occupation prior to restoration.
DPL X-6273

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/5346/rec/1

Note the scaffolding present around the building lending credence to the built-new statement, since existing buildings moved and grafted together, as John is suggesting, would not be needed, nor would Painters in that era use scaffolding.


There are a considerable number of views of B.V. taken from this vantage point all that seem to illustrate the C&S Depot went unchanged.
DPL MCC-1107

http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/252/rv/singleitem/rec/8

[John Droste]

Chris,
Not sure if you are familiar with the BV depot restoration pages of the DSP&P HS web page. That is the building that I am referring to.

There you will see everything that I made reference to.

I should reply again to your references about sleeping quarters and reused equipment again. Got a bit tangled up with that, first time.

John

[ComoDepot]

I am interested in fabricated harp stands, there is a replica cast harp in the Roundhouse, I was told the story and recollect it was not cheap to produce. Are there any fabricated ones that survive? Just wondering if they would be easy to manufacture.

As far as I know the BV Depot and the Hotel in Como were the only buildings built under the DLG, taking into account their financial situation at the time I assume they really need a new Depot in BV, do not recollect being told why.

I have been in the BV Depot at the time of its repair, rebuild and for whatever reason it reminded me of the Jefferson Depot, something that had been designed to a standard plan, if it changed during the Railroad era nobody mentioned it, certainly did afterwards.

I have not checked its construction date but thought I was told it was 1890.

PS Boreas Pass opened yesterday, a month earlier than usual.

[Chris Walker]

Those fabricated Harp stands don't resemble the proper cast Harps but more like a farm horse-drawn implement lever and frame. See: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/One-For-The-Buffalo-Hunters-tp1605p1629.html

I wouldn't think those are anyway appropriate for Como, I would like to be shown a photo of such at Como it sure would have to be a very early shot, so if you know of one, please post it.  From memory I have a vague sense one was used out at the Wye, Jeff Ramsey ?

[John Droste]

Chris & David,
Unlike the matter of the Como depot, my theory on BV is only that. A theory.
It should be very very easy to quash that theory to, for me to give up on it.
If somebody knows of another ticket window like the one in the Como depot, other than the copy in the BV depot, in the Colorado region, then my theory is shot. As far as I'm concerned.
 Secondly, The odd section of wall in the Como depot indicates that it came from an older building. It would not have come from a building that was new, naturally. The architectural style appears older. But I won't pretend to be an expert on that!
 Likewise for the corbels in the ticket window. They also appear to be of an older design. Folk art era, somebody had mentioned. But then again, I am not pretending to be an expert.
 So then again, if somebody new of other depots in the Colorado region that had that same architectural style as that of the BV depot, or that of the similar odd section of wall in the depot, my theory as far as I am concerned would be shot.
 But I do not think that such window architecture or ticket window style will be found. But as I say, this is just theory. But of all the remaining depots around Colorado of that era 1880`s and onwards, if these things are not seen replicated elsewhere then it will strengthen my theory.



So above is the odd section of wall with the window that matches those in the BV depot.
I will just use this photo to point out other things that I have discussed that link into this photo.
For starters, I thought for a while that the office had been turned 90 degrees and the hole was to lift and turn the office. That was crap.

You can compare the location on earlier plans that I showed that the trellis counter is just to the west side of the centre of the depot. In that shaded green area just this side of the trellis counter is a join. That join will be straight under the roof ridge line or the centre of the depot. That is the spot where the odd section of wall joined an original half section of wall from the end of the DRG station.
 The reason that that join stops near the TOB shaft will most likely be because the direction of the roof was changed. And you can see that the direction of roof was changed just by looking at the direction of the ceiling lining. Because the ceiling lining is nailed to a ceiling joist that is there for the purpose of stopping the roof rafters from splitting apart. Compare it to the rest of the building David.
 But back to why the join in the cladding does not go all the way to the ceiling. With the roof line changing direction, the north wall would need to be extended up of coarse to the newer roof. So I think what happened was that the top plate of the wall was cut to insert some longer studs into the wall to give strength to the apex built on top of the wall. That would entail removing cladding from one side of the wall or the other. So then replacing the cladding when finished, having the cladding joins elsewhere in the wall is only going to add strength.

 I did point out earlier too that there was a hole in the floor below the hole in the ceiling. And I believe now that these holes were to drag the depot away from the window in the end of the hotel.

 So obvious also are the silhouettes of telephones and equipment on the wall. Who remembers the old wall phone with the two round bells/ You can see it on the wall here. The interesting bit about all of this is the what was where the join in the wall is. Because that green silhouette shape is the shape of the piece of oak counter that sits in the other hole that the clock is now mounted on.

 Now that the building is all repainted, looking all neat and tidy, none of that can be observed anymore. So I am showing you, everybody.

Below is the window from the BV depot again. To compare.

[ComoDepot]

Well this is my current strange piece of metal sticking out of the ground head scratcher.

I have not seen a Como photo with that type of switch stand. Well more precisely I have not noticed it. The earliest photo I have in the 1883 Mellon, a highish resolution print is in the Depot, but that shows the whole of Como and was taken From Lechner Hill and therefore even if there were any they would be shown at the worst angle to see them.

I assume in 1879 the yard scope was very limited, we know the first train arrived in June, the spur to the coal mines was built the following month and on they went. The Mellon photo suggests very little at the north end and the track that had been put in around the Roundhouse presumably dated to 1881 earliest and it sounds like the manufactured harps were not installed then.

There was not it seems much in the way of sidings at either Weston or Webster but both had wye's. The development at Como is an unknown.

I have seen early photos of Jefferson, seems logical there were some of Como, but none seem to have survived.

[Mike Trent]

I don't think that's a switchstand. Looks more like a standpipe, and may well be not railroad related. Probably something Cooley did.

[ComoDepot]

Mike, I was thinking along the same lines, there is something which I can not make out in a photo from the 30's not sure it is this, but what is it? What was its function?

[Mike Trent]

If it was a standpipe, Cooley Bros may have used it to fill water trucks.

[ComoDepot]

Where all the water came from has always interested me, we have very little and the Railroad would have need a lot. If anybody has any ground penetrating radar please come on by.

Cooley was working down by Hamilton and during the summer the County keep a pump down there and you often see water trucks running back and fore, I think the use it for grading the dirt roads.

I thought it might be connected with a well but no obvious pump, do did it come from the town spring which does not seem to produce that much, did it produce a lot more back in the day?

[Mike Trent]

There also appears to be ruins of something, perhaps a small shed, beside it. Cooley Bros. employed a number of displaced railroaders for a short time as they converted the structures for their use. Doug Schnarbush was among them. He told me they did various things all over the property, not just at the roundhouse.