Denver to Como

[John Droste]

In Bob`s article on the Pacific in the B&L it had both photos 1883 & 85.
The difference between the altered roof over the office and the remainder roof is equally significant in each photo.

So if you cannot let go of your old theory on the history of the depot, consider the change in the roof colour from then 1879 to 1883. And then 1883 to 1885. There is no difference, going by the photos in the B&L.

The sleeping quarters chimney is visible in the image below too. Well, it was clear when I had the image as my desktop picture. The image was so good that I could make out the movements of the people in front of the depot. Look just left of the pole. There is a blue/green figure of a man in the process off sitting down. Just to the left of him again he can be seen standing in front of the baggage room door. What can not be picked up in the photo that I took is the ghostly train of the figure turning around from the door to sit down.
 The figure next to vestibule, sitting down is more easy to identify. He is on a bench seat that crosses directly in front of the waiting room door.
 From the end of the bench where the man is sitting there is another moving figure, identifiable by the colour and movement of there baggage case.

Working out the depot was hard work. And I am over it!
It has been much easier and more fun working out where the former depot was positioned and the floorpans of the Pacific Hotel.

Anyway, with the long exposure for the camera which I was meaning to get at, because the banner above the kitchen door is blowing around, it is not that easy to identify.



I suggest that a few people try setting some images up as desk top pictures so they can closely examine them. I was never able to do it again with the same success. I don't know just how I did it.

[John Droste]

Something that I noticed last night David in my photo of a photo set as a desktop picture.
The end wall of the hotel steps down twice and being that the hotel was 30 feet deep that would make three levels of ten feet.
So we know from the BB&S book that the hallway ran the full length of the hotel addition on the first floor. 98&1/2 feet.
Hallways just take up space. There purpose is to allow passage from one room to another. And I wondered why the hallway did not just stop after the end doorways to the rooms at the south end of the hall, with maybe a hall closet at the end. But the BB&S book does not provide those measurements for that.
I have pointed out that the hallways that ran east west had at least, windows on the western ends. To throw light inside the centre of the building.
In the photo in my previous post a dark patch can be noticed in the south wall of the hotel, just behind the roof ridge of the depot and exactly in the middle of the hotel according to the steps down of the wall.
I suspect that that dark spot is where a window, a hall window has ben filled in. Because of the depot being placed there or because the roof was altered over the office.
It is not easy to see but there is a dark patch there, about where the top of a window would have been.

[John Droste]

David, could that be the walls of the well behind the Pacific? That placement would be behind the kitchen area more than behind the Dining hall, as it would appear in the photo.
The returning corner of the rear of the hotel would be just above the point of the depot roof. A shadow line, obscured by the smoke is under the eaves of the deeper section of hotel where the dining room was.


So that section of wall, the south side of the dining room would be the south wall of the Eating house, your home, today.
That would mean, with the internal walls of the dining area having been recorded at 28 feet wide, the external east wall of the south tower would be what, just over thirty feet long? Given that the New eating house was built over the foundations of the Gilman.

So it could well be that with the construction of the Eating house there were never footings along the full length of the south wall because the external footings of the original building turned to include the kitchen and associated rooms.

Lack of proper footings not being implemented at the time of the new hotel construction would account for the dropping and cracking of the south wall.
 And your garage floor slab is on the foundations of the former Gilman kitchen.

[John Droste]

It is interesting to note I think in the last photo that posted, a via of the Gilman and depot from the south, the peak of the roof of the depot is way forward against the wall of the Gilman.

This shows that the Depot had been moved away from the Gilman by the time this photo was taken.
It also reasserts as I have said before, the depot was moved aside to allow ease of construction of the overhanging Gillman roof.

Besides that, lol, looks like a telegraph pole between the two buildings too.

But David, do you see a horizontal line coming from the telegraph pole to the back of the Oil room just below the eaves? Is that where you said there were three holes in the wall?

[ComoDepot]

I have seen nothing that suggests that the Depot was detached in the time of the Gilman, certainly was by 1887. I assume summer of 1885.

The well room had a couple of stories on top at the time of the Pacific and it looks Gilman

Foundations are brick/stone, some of them were repaired when the current building was built, at least one new wall.Some are under the Garage slab. I think the Gilman extended slightly south of the current Garage.

Common for corridors to have windows at each end.

[John Droste]

David,
In the view from the south of the depot and the hotel, the centre of the hotel is plainly visible. The finial under the peak of the roof is the centre of the hotel, fifteen feet in from each side.
Now we know that the centre of the depot would be just over ten feet in as the depot is what 20'3" deep. So the ridge line on the roof of the depot is in the centre too.
 And we also know that the depot was set back from the face of the hotel, just as the hotel was set back from the Gilman. Due to the curving track as it passed the Gilman.
 So according to the data above, which are all facts that we know and understand, the peak of the roof of the depot, or the ridge line, it can be called, the end point of that should be almost directly under the finial of the end of the hotel when the depot was up against the hotel.

In the photo, the end point of the depot roof along the ridge line is way forward of the finial of the hotel. And it can only appear that way because the depot has been moved away from the hotel.

Also from your last post, I think I understand that the well was under the dining room then?

As I would understand it, the two towers of the eating house, are built upon the foundations of One, the Gilman and Two, the other hotel portion that was around 45 feet deep and contained the 42 foot deep dining room.

So therefore, the depth of your Eating house towers would be around 45 feet deep, each? And not necessarily in line with each other?
Just trying to get a handle on that for the sake of interest!

It does appear that the walls of the Gilman were brought down eventually. I do not see any corresponding windows between the former and latter buildings.

And yes, common for corridors to have windows on the end, if not a doorway.
Seems that a hallway ran through the Gilman with a door each end and the conservatory to the north side of that doorway.

I have been looking at the photo of the back of the depot. I assume David that the big chimney you are speaking of was the one centred in the middle of the dining room?
I am wondering if I can see a covered stairs descending from the upper floor downwards in the direction of the depot. If my eyes are not deceiving me and I am correct, the stairs would be descending behind the protruding chimney.
 I find it peculiar that staircases are not listed in the BB&S book. I wonder what your thoughts are on that!

[ComoDepot]

The only building that has a common depth is the original Gilman, the others varied significantly at the back and slightly at the front.

Not sure what is going on at the back, did not realise the chimney was seperate until I found the foundations, there is some low level activity, can not work out why such a large chimney would need to be so close, thought brick works but a really odd place to have it. You can see the Ice House to the left that burned down.

There seems to be sun room on the right but otherwise anybody's guess is as good as mine.

The current building has a mixture of foundations.

[John Droste]

Thanks David for your words.

I don't find it a coincidence that the chimney lines up dead centre of the rear of the hotel protrusion eastwards. The chimney I say, must be at  and against the rear of the hotel.
 With the dining room being 42 feet deep, maybe there were other rooms in front of the dining room? Reception, foyer, or stairs? Meaning that the overall depth was depth was deeper than was assumed.
 Alternatively, the washrooms being set behind the dining room but not as outbuildings but set inside buildings walls. That does not fit in with my idea that the chimney served a large fireplace in the dining room.
 Still think the big chimney may have serviced a hot water service.

Anyway, would I be correct in assuming that the two ceramic pipes started each side of and in relative proximity to the chimney? That would suggest to me then that the mens and womens bathrooms were set each side of the chimney.

 Wish I could get out there with a tape measure and just have a decent look at all these original footings! And the rest.

This is all proving to be far more difficult than I first anticipated. It is going to take some time.

 Wait a minute, maybe the big chimney was for Santa Claus. Ho Ho Ho. Merry Christmas to you.
Been watching the ashes series?

[Chris Walker]

In this photo taken from the Wye(Fox Hill??) what is the date of the picture, the Hotel appears to be under construction sans roof or under rebuilding perhaps?  
Buildings on the far side of town show where  a roof should be, at least to my eyes, is there any clearer copies of this picture to be had or is it being kept a secret?

[John Droste]

The photo is taken from the wye, as the track suggests.

Chris, I think the original roof of the second hotel was meant to be flat. Same setup as the roundhouse with the sidewalls extending up above the roofline. Is that called a parapet? If so, you can see the parapet in steps above my close up of the depot.

 In the photo of the burned out Pacific at the rear of the remaining standing building, you can see on top of the wall where it was built level to take the Pacific roof.

 Another interesting thing about that photo is that there is a doorway right in the corner where the hotel meets the Gilman. I am presuming at the moment that the reception to the Gilman was just inside to the right, and that then the doorway just behind the reception would be staff entrance of for porters to gather or dispatch waiting baggage through when the train was arriving.
 It also shows the entrance to the kitchen altered to a window.

 Anyway, this photo. Somehow I have an enlargement of the Hotel. It is clear in that photo that the sunroom or conservatory is on the north side of the back door of the Gilman. The roof comes up clear and I think three large windows from hip hight up. That's how it looks to me.

I don't think the building is under construction. I do believe the two hotels were closed while access was made between the two hotels.
Have been through all of that discussing the windows being recycled through the depot and pieces of removed moulding being used to cover wall joins in the depot too. So that at the time would have been 1881.

 I do not know when this photo was taken but it was probably taken by the doctor who practised from the hotel. I am just picturing him using one of those rooms in the basement for his darkroom. I mean what better place would there be? And then with the fire, all of the hotel collapsing in covering up all his glass plates and everything else. I just notice that so many of his photos appear water damaged. Maybe its the glass plates that were water damaged.
 There is a famous photo called "The Falls of Haladale", of a ship that slid onto a reef and gradually broke up below the cliffs. I did a job once and at the back of the old building was a darkroom, no windows to that. Just some benches and sinks. There were three glass plates leaning against the wall almost two feet across. Each one was of the Falls of Haladale and all different. If ever I wanted to take something that I should not have and did`nt, it would have been those glass plates. The glass plates were all damaged from moisture damage around the edges. Just like the doctors photos. Can't remember his name *^%$. Anyway, I just wonder what was in those rooms under the building caved in. The railroad offices worked from there too. Did they keep all their files in the basement I wonder. Are they still there, waiting to be found? Under some innocent looking rubble.

 Can't say where I got the photo from.
Hang on. Of course, the Dispatcher`s is there. That gives a timeframe. And another possibility to compare what buildings are in the town and what are not as I question the dates of the 1883 & 85 photos.

[John Droste]

Here is another one which is clearer than the first. The conservatory becomes more apparent. Amongst other things!


The brace to the left is of the telegraph pole which is visible in the other photo too.

[ComoDepot]

Chris Walker wrote

In this photo taken from the Wye(Fox Hill??) what is the date of the picture, the Hotel appears to be under construction sans roof or under rebuilding perhaps?  
Buildings on the far side of town show where  a roof should be, at least to my eyes, is there any clearer copies of this picture to be had or is it being kept a secret?

Never heard it called Fox Hill.

The photo is later than the other one which showed the Building complete and was taken from the other side, Lookout Hill, this one shows the Dispatchers Office, the earlier one was dated 1883 so this one is later 1883 up to early 1885.

[John Droste]

I believe both are the same photo. Both have an engine parked in front of the Yardmasters and with a whitish patch in front of the engine and the corner of the Dispatcher`s.

Below is a photo depicting the banner in the breeze, above the kitchen door in the 1883 photo. Don't tell me the hotel is not open for business yet!
I have had the photo clearer. There are barrels and boxes underneath the end window of the kitchen and directly in front of that items on the very edge of the platform.

[John Droste]

Here it is. The photo showing what I call a shingled wall on the north end of the depot. This is an image that was compressed when moving files from one computer to another. I lost a lot of good stuff doing that, including the former photos posted.
When the file was good, the glazing bars of the window were clearly visible. As was the shingles on the wall. Just have a look how neat the brickwork is next to the hotel keeper in the above window and what you might like to excuse as pixelations in the north wall.
I could show you close up colour photos of that wall with the paint peeling off. First coat appears to have been red.

[John Droste]

Look again at the north wall.

[John Droste]

I meant to add in the last post to notice the position of the telegraph pole too.
Exactly in the position where the wires drop when viewing the Gilman from the south.

[Chris Walker]

Thanks for the dates.

There is a location somewhere between the Wye and Jefferson known as Fox Hill, picture see: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Roper-Snapshot-52-53-tp10141p10142.html  Placing one on googlemaps streetview the background is the better match out on the 285 looking over the Wye area in the direction of Hamilton, that's why I asked.  

Would like to find the actual location since I have often wondered also if that curve where the Wye was located was called Fox Hill.

[ComoDepot]

Chris Walker wrote

Thanks for the dates.

There is a location somewhere between the Wye and Jefferson known as Fox Hill, picture see: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Roper-Snapshot-52-53-tp10141p10142.html  Placing one on googlemaps streetview the background is the better match out on the 285 looking over the Wye area in the direction of Hamilton, that's why I asked.  

Would like to find the actual location since I have often wondered also if that curve where the Wye was located was called Fox Hill.

Looking at that photo I would place it half a mile or so north of the wye, from the wye the grade crossed where US 285 is now, ran in a straight line and then cut around to the left to go down the escarpment in front of the Tarryall before swinging right and heading for Jefferson, looks to me like they are stuck in the cutting where the grade swings left.

[John Droste]

I will just show you this as it links in with absolutely everything that I have been discussing in the past.
Maybe one day, somebody will understand.

While the President of the DSP&P HS was corresponding with me we discussed the dividing wall at the back of the office. He pointed out that the wall only reached a certain hight as a double clad wall. Above that, no framework, only cladding reaching to the ceiling.
Wall in question is to the left in the photo below. You can see where the wall changes to single cladding on the opposite side.



This wall is almost certainly a disused wall from a boxcar or boxcars. Very possibly the missing walls from the two boxcars side by side nearby. It would be easy to check were you allowed. But I doubt that will happen, being as tangible as it is.



I expect that it will be from the boxcars outside, but it does not really matter. It will be from some kind of salvaged rolling stock.

Remember then, that this wall is structural. It supports the join of two pieces of wall on the south end.
And that join in the south wall is exactly half the internal width of the depot from the rear wall of the depot.

There is one other matter I could mention. I have explained before, I think not here, but I explained that the depot was moved in between the time it was assembled in Como 1881 and 1883, when the first known photo was taken. I can detail all that again but I won't.
Point I want to make is that I now understand why it was moved.
 The 98.5 foot hallway running the length of the DSP&P hotel would have logically had a window in the south end. With two buildings from Denver being recycled in their entirety, the roof over the office would have ran in the opposite direction to what it does today. You can actually see that from looking at the direction of the ceiling cladding in the office.

 But the roof would have had to be altered, because of snow buildup against the hotel. And with the altering of the roof, the new roof would have been over the window of the hotel. And so the hotel was dragged forwards towards the track to clear the window.

Thats why you see a replaced roof over the office in the photo below. And the replaced patches of roof tile over the freight room too. In the past I have shown the patched floor in the freight room. And in the office, the patches in both the floor and the ceiling.



In the photo above you can note the shaded area behind the ridge of the roofline where the window was too.

 I may as well continue with some further observations, knowing that there will be no acknowledgement but for the next generation historians. I explained before that the roof and floor of the Switchman's hut came from the building next door to the DRG depot in Como. And that the wall structure came from a work car or caboose. And that the windows of that five sided Switchman's hut/room were the windows removed from the Gilman when the two hotels were joined together. The windows being inserted in the doorways of what was...
 However now, having realised that the dividing wall in the office is from a piece of rolling stock, and I would say highly likely from the two boxcars joined together, I do wonder if the wall of the Switchman's hut with the sliding door actually came from a remaining piece of the boxcar walls too.

I will finish off showing a drawing with the size of the cladding on the Switchman's hut. A different size to that of the remainder of the depot. I do wonder how that dimension, the dimension of the cladding on the dividing wall in the office and the cladding dimensions on the two boxcars correspond.



And if you have not done it before, compare the glass pane arrangement in the Gillman and to the drawing above.
It just brings it home to me how tough things were in those days. Nothing could be wasted, and finances were scant.

[Jeff Ramsey]

I will admit John, us guys in Como appreciate and admire your sense of humor. You have   brought us closer.