Denver to Como

[John Droste]

The Colorado Central station was in the words of Kenton Forrest, "Torn Down" on June 6 1881.

The tower on the Grande Union Station was completed on July 13.

"Construction superintendent and architect William E Taylor turned over to Building Superintendent Truffant the keys to the building on July 26. However, it had been operating since the first part of May."

Other notes;

The depot(GUS) did open for business on June1.

On May12 the Rio Grande passenger department moved in on the second floor.

On the 19th, the Rio Grande had its third rail. (Whatever that means.)

On the 20th, excursion trains used part of the depot even though the building was still under construction.

And, "As to the first train to use the depot, it is hard to say. Since the old depot was in the lot next to the new depot, and the tracks were really next to the new ones, it is hard to say when the first train arrived and departed."

[John Droste]

After reading David`s notes on Lechner yesterday morning, I have woken up this morning with a very different perspective.

The flaw in my point of view was that I was saying that the walls of the freight room came from Denver, from that building next door to the DRG station. But that would have meant that part of that building had cladding on the inside walls, as used in the office. And part not cladded, as used in the freight room. And that was a flaw in my understanding of things.

David was correct in suspecting that the Lechner freight house was used in the Depot. So lets look again.

I have pointed out the haphazard manner in which the architraves from the Gilman hotel were used to cover up (?) from the resurrection of the two Denver buildings. The (?) applying to the baggage room.



This coincides very well with the same standard of work in the freight house room door entrances where what was what looks like doorways just large enough to take a stage coach or round top covered canvas wagon through, altered to become a lower door entrance. A window sash used sideways as part of that alteration.

 So I concur with David. I now think that the walls of the freight room were in Lechner already.
The end walls of the freight room having to be cut and altered, having a brace put on them to keep them square and strong as the were lifted back up.
 The floor of the freight room I believe, still a part of the DRG depot.
 Just note the door with the broken panels out of the top. It has the timber that it was attached to, still hinged on.
That door came from here below. The wall between the freight room and the baggage room.

 You can see in the photo above that I am suggesting that the Cooley brothers opened up the wall between the freight room and baggage room to bring the door through.
 So if the timber rail fixed to the wall to the right of the window sash above the broken door in the freight room is at a similar hight to the rail above this door below, we should assume I think safely that this door was moved to the front from the back entrance.

These doors from the front of the depot are little doubt in my mind, two doors that have been spliced together. One slightly higher than the other so that the rails slide past each other.

 So maybe these doors came from the original doors of the livery, stables or coach house whatever you may wish to call it and they were cut down in hight and spliced together to make a door to suit the wider opening.
 A question mark would hang over the timeline of this events. However, if the length of bibs, the horizontal pieces in the door are half the width of the door opening in the back wall, then I think we would have it.

 So the remainder of the former Lechner 'freight station'? What if the Building thought to be the Ice House was part of that?
As can be seen over the top of the depot. It had an air ventilation housing on the roof. An animal house may have that but you would not put that on an ice house where you are trying to restrict air flow.

And David, over the years you have mentioned three ideas that I recall why there was multi layers of floor under the boxcar wall!
The back of the depot was dropping so new layers of flooring had to be added.
The roof leaked and the floor rotted.
The guys in the office wore hob nail boots and wore the floor away.
No, No and No. How about this. The floor of the office was already rooted by the time it was put back together in Como?
I have pointed out the floor joists in the baggage room that came from the office building before. But I did not point out to readers that that floor had to be packed up nearly two inches to meet the level of the other floor.


The packing up of the floor in the baggage room, the shorter floor joists, the way the room was joined to the freight room, these were things that completely threw Mt Pershbacher. I read his report. He could not explain!

 So after reading that Como was Lechner, and there was an establishment here dealing with stage and freight, I am very content to believe that the freight house walls came from that building.
 In the end, and at the moment I do not know the arrangement of the floor underneath the entire office, namely what you call the first extension, but in the end the length of the amount of floor area from that second building in Denver would have to be shorter than the floor area of the DRG station, otherwise the building would have showed up protruding beyond the station building.

[John Droste]

Another photo that may interest people.




Above, shows the rail over the door/s on the shanty. Like on a boxcar?


Above freight room. Look like a livery wall? So horses can't kick through?


In this photo above, I have said that these shelves were for the batteries. There is a mark across the ceiling. There would be no reason for that to be there if this was not a fully enclosed cabinet with doors. This is the side of the oil room, in the baggage room.


Above, one of the Crow foot battery terminals. Photo taken behind the depot. The type of gravity cell battery that sat on the shelves in the baggage room.
 Later, the small building behind the office became the leading battery room.
Hence the wires across the sleeping quarters ceiling. Which invariably gave David the idea that the sleeping quarters may have been the battery room.


Maybe you can pick up in the above photo that the north wall was timber shingles at the time. The glazing bars in the window pane under locomotive headlight are clear enough to recognise that the shingles is not pixelation.


The telegraph wires board that I have pointed out ever so many times, would not have been used as such anti the depot was moved away from the Pacific, and a telegraph pole inserted in-between the two. But yet as I have said before, the pieces of window surround were attached even before the corner bead was placed on.


Was sent this photo above when I first said that something strange was going on with the depot. I in fact suggested that it may have been the dispatchers residence then. Of coarse that was nonsense. But it shows how little I knew, and how tenacious I was and am to reach the truth.

[Chris Walker]

 On the 19th, the Rio Grande had its third rail. (Whatever that means.)

John,

since then D&RG in 1880 was forced by its competitors to consider standard gauging, which was done by adding a outside third rail on its existing narrow gauge track between Denver and Pueblo in 1881.

So it could mean that the tracks in the vicinity of DUD were SG with a third inside rail added to accomodate NG of the D&RG.

However I'm not certain of the origin of your wording, whether it is a quote from a book or just your turn of phrase.

Robert Le Massena in his book Colorado Mountain Railroads on pg 362 under the Union Depot & Railroad entry states,

"....Trustees from Colorado Central;  Denver Pacific; Kansas Pacific; Denver, South Park & Pacific (all in the Union Pacific's system); and the Denver & Rio Grande worked out plans for the site and structure. (all this U.P. influence gave the station the nickname "Union Pacific Depot.")....."
"....All six tracks were 3-rail to accomodate the CC, DSP&P, and D&RG narrow-gauge trains."

It that wording, he was not referring to any of the those tracks on Wynkoop that appear in the Clocktower views and the foreground of this picture.
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/88640/rv/singleitem/rec/28


Differing Authors have differing wording to describe such events.  You point out errors in Mac Poor's writing yet place great Faith in Kenton Forrest's writing.  

Not everyone gets it right, many of our beloved books are littered with inaccuracies.  My favourite illustration of this is a picture in the DPL, previously listed prior to my correction as Union Pacific, Denver & Gulf Train No. 7 at Empire.  http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/30887
This particular view has been published in several books claiming to be Empire, Colorado when it was indeed at Silver Plume.
David S. Digerness Mineral Belt Vol-3 pg 294  
Mac Poor Denver, South Park & Pacific pg283  
Cornelius W. Hauck CRRA Number Ten pg101
and at Georgetown Robert Le Massena Colorado Mountain Railroads pg346.

I am concluded all this mistaken location ID is due to the building behind the UP,D&G #7 was not the same as the Silver Plume Depot and we all know that the SP Depot was the original there, actually the building behind the #7 is(was) the Bunkhouse at SP.  
Fortunately with the modern computer I was able to cross-check the Mountain Ridgelines to verify my initial thoughts.  
You John, on the other hand are unable to do such otherwise.

Incidently another view taken at Silver Plume location from the otherside of the tracks was also mislabled in the Mineral Belt V-3 as to being Empire as well. That picture was DPL X-17690. (it is Not mislabled at DPL, only in Min. Belt 3).

[Robert McFarland]

Standard Gauge on the line south from Denver.

[John Droste]

Chris,
everything in that particular post that I posted last night are extracts from Kenton Forrest`s book "Denver`s Railroads".

Word for word. Except where I comment.

 Yes I know that I am not perfect in the things I do. Just like many authors. But I do the best I can.
Thanks for explaining the third rail.
 I have a feeling Chris that you would Enjoy reading Mr Forrest`s book.

 As for getting involved with other railroad business other than the depot, I am just to busy in my own fantasy world.

Inspired by the article about Bill McKee, I made a totally abstract model as a result thereof. I call it "Everyday but Sunday". This afternoon I will be working on placing it in position at the bottom of my transition line to the upper level of my railroad. In a siding of coarse.

[Robert McFarland]

Check the top of Clock Tower underneath the weathervane and you will see the mountings for the arc lamps.

[Robert McFarland]

What is the other tower behind the station?

[John Droste]

Gas or power company was about that area.

[Chris Walker]

John,
Above, shows the rail over the door/s on the shanty. Like on a boxcar?
in regards to your third photo caption and your insistence there be a sliding door on the Yardmasters addition....

please re-read Todd Hackett's reply to my post way back on pg 2 of this mission. There was no sliding door and as I thought from the hasp and staple visible, modified into two outward opening doors. Todd posted a photo showing those doors open.
http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Denver-to-Como-tp6568p9743.html

As to this wonderful photo showing an extended Hotel at the end of the Depot, IF ONLY this had come to light months ago we'd all be right behind you on the details of the Como Depot Modified Into The Como Depot Of Today. !

[John Droste]

Chris,
was not saying that there was a sliding door there at the time the photo was taken. I am suggesting/asking the question, it looks to me to be like there was a larger opening there that may perhaps resemble that of a sliding door opening on a boxcar, worker or caboose. That the opening was altered to hinged doors.

And mate, your reference to extended hotel, now you have got me wondering what you are talking about!

However, while trying to understand what you meant... Look at photo 1404, tell me that is not a rounded roof car as the vestibule.

And then look at the silhouette in white in the photo below. Tell me it is not the silhouette of the side of same or similar car. And that with the olive green patch above the silhouette, a flat roof was attached later. ???








Will say it again. Square little windows in the vestibule.

[Chris Walker]

 And mate, your reference to extended hotel, now you have got me wondering what you are talking about!

John...... Mate !!  in reference to your post of the Bob Schoppe picture  #2656. Como 1883  One sure new beauty picture to boot, Mate!!

However, while trying to understand what you meant... Look at photo 1404, tell me that is not a rounded roof car as the vestibule.

And then look at the silhouette in white in the photo below. Tell me it is not the silhouette of the side of same or similar car. And that with the olive green patch above the silhouette, a flat roof was attached later. ???

Simply No: since I have better copies of those photos, I can definitely see a flat roof, and the progression of eras says NO as well.  That 1404 picture is after the Railroad has gone, the roof of the airlock looks to be sinking in the closest corner to me.   Nowing the Railway Painters here just perhaps the Como Painter was too lazy to get right up and in there to clean off the soot and grime before he gave it a quick lick of paint.

[John Droste]

Okay, I understand. Will show you better but busy just now. Mate.

On 3 Jun 2018, at 6:43 pm, Chris Walker [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

 And mate, your reference to extended hotel, now you have got me wondering what you are talking about!

John...... Mate !!  in reference to your post of the Bob Schoppe picture  #2656. Como 1883

---

If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:

http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Denver-to-Como-tp6568p11773.html

To unsubscribe from Denver to Como, click here.
NAML

[John Droste]

Chris,
I think the top photo shows it best. Look at the DSP hotel as if they are three different buildings built asymmetrically. That is, that the windows are balanced in the face of the building. Because that is what actually occurred.
You see the central original building then. Three windows in the 1st floor. However, downstairs, the entrance to the building is under the left window, to allow for the staircase to the right, inside the door.
Upstairs the middle window is open. That window is at the end of the hallway that runs east west, straight down the middle of the hotel, bedrooms to each side of coarse. But inside the window too, in that hall, is the landing of the stairs.
Remember downstairs is one enormous dining room. Upstairs, behind the row of bedrooms facing the front must be the 98.5 foot long hallway, 6 feet wide.
So each side of the original DSP hotel are extensions. One extending to and joining the Gilman. On the other side, another extension with three windows upstairs, kitchen and facilities below.
Now to identify where the joins are to the first construction look to the extension between the DSP hotel and the Gilman, judge the distance halfway between the two windows visible, take that distance to the far side of the window and that is where the join is between the DSP hotel and the extension.
The distance from the left window of the original construction to the join in the wall is far greater than the distance from the extensions window to the join in the wall.
So on the other side of the far window upstairs of the original DSP hotel, the distance is the same out from the window to the join in the wall. Because as I said before, the original DSP hotel and the extensions to each side are asymmetrical.







A few other things that I could point out here, while I am at it. Notice that the hotel kitchen has a door entrance. Best seen in the bottom photo. In the photo of the Pacific burned down, that window has been turned into a window.
Above that door that was later bricked in, there is a pole sticking out horizontally from the wall. There is a banner hanging from the pole, bending gently in the breeze.
 Makes me think that perhaps this kitchen started out as an independent setup from the DSP hotel but was consumed into the Pacific. Theory only, maybe something will show up. I remember Robert saying many years ago that thee was no reference to there being a kitchen in the proposed DSP Hotel. Robert?

Good opportunity here to compare the Gilman windows to the shanty windows in one.



And the bricked in kitchen window.

Below, the BB&S room sizes of the hotel, And all of the rest.


So you see, naturally, the south end of the 99&1/3 foot long DSP Hotel hall would have had a window in it. That allows about ten inch thickness of the end wall. The other end of coarse, the window was taken out of the Gilman to make a door entrance. Upstairs and downstairs. The Gilman would have been asymmetric too most likely, so you can see the window arrangement on the north side would have been like the south side.
 The extension being, what was it 20 feet deep. And the Gilman I think was 45 feet deep. So maybe then, 3 windows removed from the Gilman. Third window, very possibly somewhere in the depot too.

[Robert McFarland]

To the left of the ruins of the hotel is the 2 room brick s--t house.

[Chris Walker]

Good opportunity here to compare the Gilman windows to the shanty windows in one. 

John...... Mate !!  in reference to your post of the Bob Schoppe picture  #2656. Como 1883
http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Denver-to-Como-tp6568p11764.html

Do you not see in that picture that the Yardmasters addition has windows already?  From the way you're talking I was getting the impression that the addition was after all the other alterations.  

[Chris Walker]

Robert McFarland wrote

What is the other tower behind the station?

Robert, that smokestack is part of the Depot...

[John Droste]

Hey Bro,
That is the exact opposite of what I have been saying.
I am saying that the shanty was made up of pieces of rolling stock. That the two windows in the angled walls are inserted into the door openings of what was the ends of a caboose or work car that had doors in the end, originally.


John...... Mate !!  in reference to your post of the Bob Schoppe picture  #2656. Como 1883
http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Denver-to-Como-tp6568p11764.html

Do you not see in that picture that the Yardmasters addition has windows already?  From the way you're talking I was getting the impression that the addition was after all the other alterations.

[John Droste]

Bro, is that all you can fall back to?

[John Droste]

Further to my previous post, after consideration, the 20&1/3 ft depth of the extension is of no random selection.
The inside of the dining room being 42 feet deep, add the outside wall thicknesses and you will understand that the rear wall of the extension was under the roof ridge line. The back wall extended all the way up to support the roof. There was no roof over the void between the two hotels at the back.
 Understanding this begs the question then. Was the 98.5 foot long hallway part of the initial design of the hotel or was there alterations made to the initial building for the allowance of the hallway?



Anyway, just thought I would mention it in case somebody cares. Photo above shows the back wall before the wall was extended up to the Pacific hotel roof line. I can't imagine that dimension is by accident of design!