Denver to Como

[Mike Trent]

John, is there a particular reason you think the living quarters at the depot were occupied by a dispatcher rather than the Station Agent?

[John Droste]

No Mike.
That would only be my ignorance of railroads showing through.
Could well be the Station Agent and my knowledge is not enough know the difference.
Thanks for the suggestion.

[John Droste]

No Mike.
That would only be my ignorance of railroads showing through.
Could well be the Station Agent and my knowledge is not enough TO know the difference.
Thanks for the suggestion.

No different from my not knowing the difference between a semaphore or a train order board.

[ComoDepot]

The Hotels were on Railroad property presumably paid for by the Railroad or its subsidiary.

Gilman and his two partners did have a tented operation in Como in the summer of 70. Apparently common for the Hotel to be named after the proprietor.

He seems to have been a Conductor on the line  and operated at least one other Eating House.

Gilman Hotel opened on New Years eve 1880, extended 3? times, Gilman moved away, mention of Buena Vista, seems his wife had medical issue.

The Gilman, seems to have kept the name to 1885, was taken over by the UP Hotel Division and reopened as the Pacific Hotel in 1885, judging by Newspaper reports they undertook a major refurb.

I think it was 1895 they gave it up and 2 ladies were running it when it burned down in 1896.

Part of the foundations were used for the new hotel, some walls are noted as being repaired a few new ones. Probably the biggest one is the rear wall to the north tower, original Giman, which is 10ft or so nearer the track, the old foundations are still in the dirt.

[John Droste]

David,
Your description makes it sound as if the Hotel next the the Depot is the Gilman?

[John Droste]

[John Droste]

Mike Trent,
It has not been my intention to be flippant in my reply to you.
Writing replies when I should be working is not a good idea.

To address the role of the person of the sleeping quarters as best I can;
1st, Being unprepared was not an option.

At the time, "There was an enormous amount of traffic coming and going through the dead of night." I think I can quote that word for word.

As I think of it now, destination points would have been reached, hence the amount of traffic.

It was the role of the person to know when the next train was arriving, setting his alarm clock. He would have to wake before the arrival of that train, checked incoming telegraph for information and then written instructions and been ready to pass that to the train crew as they pulled in.
 And as I recall things thinking about this through the day, not being ready for the train crew was not an option.

 Then I guess, he would have to telegraph ahead to notify what was going on, just as he had been informed. And then set the alarm clock for the next train arrival.
Make sense?
 Station agent or Dispatcher?

[Chris Walker]

ComoDepot,

can you remember if the Como Depot Chimney bases or foundations were either Brick, Concrete or Stone or a mixture of those materials?

[ComoDepot]

Chris, the foundations are wood, they start on a wooden shelf, presumably to save expensive bricks.

Todd was here yesterday and say hi.

[Mike Trent]

John,

I'm not going to get into a deep discussion over this, as I am by no means any sort of expert on early days in Como.

But I will say, that it would be my conjecture that the large space at the North end of the depot was probably for the use of the Superintendent as his office until his new office was constructed possibly in 1883. That structure is often referred to as the Dispatcher's office, but I'm sure that was because they had to call it something after 1910 after which there surely would have been no Superintendent. In fact, there wouldn't have been much need for a dispatcher after 1910 either, but it was still a Division Point and they would have needed one.

After the Superintendent would have moved out of the Depot, that office may have become the dispatcher's office.    

There probably was a night operator during the time when trains were moving in and out during overnight hours, but he would have been a telegrapher and an assistant agent. As Como was a Division Point and different from remote depot outposts along the line, there probably wasn't a need or space to actually provide living quarters in the Depot. That may have changed after 1910, as everything else changed.

When Como was working a 24 hr schedule, everything would have been done in shifts., not dependent upon somebody setting an alarm clock to wake up for the next train.  There was no greater priority than manning the telegraph, and the night operator would have handled that.

Certainly in later times, and maybe even in earlier times, the latticed wall inside the North doorway is where the Register Book would have been kept. Every helper running light and every train would have been required to sign the Register upon arrival and departure. Enginemen and Conductors would have been in and out of that area all the time, but would not have had access to the rest of the Depot. When the Depot at Dickey was closed as an active station, and maybe before, the Register Book was kept in a small box with a writing top on it on the South wall next to the door.  

The Depot interior probably changed in functionality several times over the years, as need required. It would not surprise me at all to learn that at times there would have been both Men's and Women's waiting rooms, as was very common. It would be pretty hard to try to come up with definitive purposes in each area over the years.      

[Chris Walker]

Thank you ComoDepot.  Now for a harder question, is this normal to sit brick chimneys upon wooden sills up there?  All those down here that I have had involvement with have had a huge concrete or brick base.  South Park, any input on this in your neck of the woods?

EDIT:  What I should more correctly describe as open hearth fireplaces: from the pictures below, the Como chimneys look more like bricked flues and were for venting closed castiron Stoves rather than a traditional fireplace.  That might explain why there is no solid base?

[John Droste]

Chris,
can see base of chimney support on left. I think bricks started above ceiling. At least they did between office a waiting room.

I heard or read that there was a post office near the depot in early days. Maybe that was near 7th street, maybe it was this!

Office side

Waiting room side

Its like patchwork quilt

[John Droste]

Regarding my last post.
Few points about the office/waiting room wall Chris.
They are a great example of two half walls being joined together.
Panelling cut back to one, join the walls together and two, build in a support for the chimney.

With patches over patches.

Also it shows on the waiting room side, the rains that poured down the wall. Reason why the double panelling appears on the other side. Water washing the dirt out between the joins. Would not be surprised in fact if it was clap board behind. So dirt, dust and mud would collect at that point where the two layers of panels met hard against each other.

And all this we are wanted to believe, all happened to a new building in the space of four years. Go figure.



This photo above shows;
the double clad lining in the half wall from a different angle,
the patched in door opening in the far wall,
the join in the north wall marked AA,
and below that the hole in the floor for a sling to come down to drag the depot away from the hotel window,
the little heater below the hole in the wall for the chimney pipe. But more likely looking at it, just the flue pipe only.

And Chris, this is a great photo showing the ceiling, with the ceiling joists running in the opposite direction to what the roof trusses do. When really they should be running in the opposite direction, to stop the rafters from spreading apart at the bottom. That is why you see a new roof over the office in the 1883 photo.


Normally, the ceiling joists would be running in the direction of those in the freight room. as below.

[ComoDepot]

Some years back I was in the Assessor's Office and mentioned that the Hotel was listed in their records as timber framed rather than brick, turns out they do not have a brick option and saw no need to add one.

Pot bellied stoves seemed the popular option, wood fired stoves are still a very common source of heat, no more coal but plenty of wood.

I assume having brick chimneys was considered better, maybe from a fire perspective? Not sure. Metal would have been easier cheaper to transport.

[Jeff Young]

Yeah, you’ve got the guts of it there, David.  Bricks offer better heat insulation but are dearer to transport.

[South Park]

See source above for referenced photo

"And Chris, this is a great photo showing the ceiling, with the ceiling joists running in the opposite direction to what the roof trusses do. When really they should be running in the opposite direction, to stop the rafters from spreading apart at the bottom. That is why you see a new roof over the office in the 1883 photo.


Normally, the ceiling joists would be running in the direction of those in the freight room. as below. "

======================================================

    First of all, this is a "stick-framed" roof.  There are no trusses.  You have a
king post (this is the item with the arrow and the question "purpose?" pointing
to it).  It supports the ridge beam.  In this case, not much of a "beam".  Perhaps
"ridge timber" is a better term, but they are generally called "ridge beam" in
my part of the world.  This is what the top end of the rafters nail off to.  The bottom
rides on the non-gable-end wall, with an overhanging eave.  What carries the
ceiling are "ceiling joists".  They appear like the bottom cord of a truss in the
photo, and run at the level of the intented ceiling, to box out the top of a finished
room.  They also served a VITAL function as "collar ties", holding the opposing
walls at a set distance.  In snow country, the snow weight will crush a roof down-
-ward, and without the collar ties, the center of the walls bow, and eventually the
whole building will implode at the center.

  What you are calling "roof joints" are actually "skip sheeting", a method of
covering the roof rafters in a way to then place the shingles without solid boards
from eave to ridge.  Naturally, these run perpendicular to the rafters to tie the
rafters into a solid framed unit, but also to provide nail backing for the shingles.

  I just finished a chicken shed using this construction method last night.  I will
sheet with plywood, as I want to stiffen the structure as much as possible, but
otherwise the same.  What you see in that photo is standard operating procedure
for nearly ALL stick framing of the 1860-1960 period (at least in the U.S.).  I
have been a historic restoration speciailist now for nearly 40 years.  This building
looks absolutely typical for its time.

I model in full scale.  Current project:

[Robert McFarland]

Doesn't the Turner store at Garo have the same type of roof?

[John Greenly]

Chris,
As to brick chimneys that start partway up the wall, I live here in upstate NY in a late 1830's Greek Revival house; the last addition, probably in the late 1800s, was a summer kitchen on the back of the house.  When we pulled it apart to renovate we were horrified to see that the brick chimney for the stove began 6 ft above the floor, essentially hung from a ceiling joist/collar tie inside an interior wall.  That timber was a piece of chestnut about 2x11, and it had sagged into a pronounced hammock shape over the century of holding up those bricks.  There were terrifying black soot marks on the nearby wood, from leaks in the degraded chimney mortar.  Another reason buildings burned down often.  In those days there was an operating brickyard just half a mile up the road from here.  I have no idea whether it was to save money on bricks or just laziness about building it all the way up from a proper foundation that dictated this construction.

John

John Greenly
Lansing NY

[John Droste]

Hi SP,
referring to the freight room roof construction. Apart from getting vernacular confused, I do understand the method of construction.
Also, I do understand that the new timbers in the freight room roof were used in the restoration process.

Regarding the piece of timber that I marked with a "purpose question mark", I still wonder what that was for. As you know, it has a horizontal returning piece to the south wall lower down.
 I do wonder if it was used as means of pulling the wall up to a vertical position with ropes attached, pulled back by a loco maybe. Of coarse, the men on hand may hand lift the top of the wall to maybe hip hight but after that, strong pressures would need be applied to lift it the rest of the way. It is just a thought. It would have needed more bracing to what is there, but it would have given leverage to lift the wall.
 I wonder what you think of that idea.
 Regarding the office again. As I said now a number of times, but with your correct terminology, also used here in Australia, the roof ridge beam of the office originally ran east west over what you call the 1st addition. Knowing stick frame construction methods for roofs, you can not argue that!
 Would like to show you a photo below of this little assembly leaning behind and against the freight house wall.


Some restoration has been done on the building at this point and it is seems suggestive that unidentified materials were removed from the building and dumped out the back. And note as a matter of interest as a side issue. The photo is also taken before the heavy rain washed away the floor of the shanty that was built like a brick S... house.
 We should understand that the building that was brought from Denver was already very old, hence the rotten floor that had a new floor layered over the top. So if the remaining ridge beam over the sleeping quarters is of a seemingly rough hewn proportion of this beam with the check in the photo above then maybe this was the section cut out when the roof was altered. It does not fit the bell perfectly to me, but it is very close. I mean, the angle of the timbers fits the angle of the roof. And also, the distance from the office roof ridge beam to the top of the depot peak of the roof looks about right. Looking at photo below.

 Keep all that in mind when you then look at the photo below and notice the dog leg in the roof over the office where this then above described structure would have sat, before the roof was altered.

 So that structure was for something. It had a purpose. And I think it sat at the back of the freight room for ever, leaning in the corner. And everybody thought, "WTF is that? Think I will just leave it there!"

 But just before I finish. I have said the south wall of the 2nd extension is made up of portions of the original DRG depot. In the photo above, you can see that the window in that wall is the same proportions as the window to its left.
 And you can see that the door entrance was also once a window, due to the short patches of cladding above the doorway.
 So there is every possibility, not saying it is so, but there is every possibility that the door jamb removed from the office west wall, was placed in the window opening above.
 That realisation then, means that the boxcar wall could have been marched in at a later date!
On the other hand, I have also pointed out that the boxcar wall is there for structural purposes, being a half wall distance away from the back of the depot. Maybe it was put there when the building was constructed. Maybe it was put there later, to reinforce a flimsy construction, meaning that the sleeping quarters came into being later. But when then?
 Photo below shows the west side of the boxcar wall. The paint line shows a staggered line, indicating that this cladding has been removed and then renailed, with the paint line no longer a straight line.

And by the way, the hole in the floor for the oak counter on end, that was the second hole for dragging the depot towards the track. Same as there was two holes over the freight room.
 The silhouette of the oak counter can be seen in green against the north wall in earlier photos that I posted. Next to the trellis counter.
 The last photo since I have posted a photo showing the profile of the back of the office. I will also show the same wall in Denver, far left hand side of the photo. It is all about probabilities. New or old, somebody show me another photo of the end of a building that fits the same profile of this building. Building is in the far right corner of the photo.

Before reacting off the cuff South Park, there is an enormous amount of information in this post for you to consider.
 Included in that to then. Look at the replaced lining above the freight room door, evident by the different paint history. I would say that happened at the time the office roof was altered. Would,nt you?

Your house looks fantastic by the way.

[South Park]

  John,

  I am having an impossible time of tracking all the subject matter
you toss out.  I was last in the Como depot decades ago.  It was a
mess, and I did not give a second thought to mismatched walls,
paint, siding, holes, etc.  It is par for the course with long-used
commercial buildings.

  I still find the notion of a D&RG building being moved 100 miles
through endless narrow slots - bridges, rock cuts, etc. - to be absurd.
Especially when the detail trim so closely matches other 1879-built
depots along the line.

  Let's walk this back a couple steps ....

  Are you suggesting that this is a structure erected at Como in the
1880's, after the UP had control of the RR ?  If so, how did all the
trim and detail come to match the other depots built in the original
mainline push up the Platte ?  That header carving is hand done and
VERY unusual.

  What was being used as a depot in 1879-80 ?

  I know lots of stuff got reused/repurposed by creative carpenters,
and is shows in the often scarred underbellies of the buildings.  But
the logistics of moving a depot in sections over 100 miles of rail vs.
all the other possible reasons the Como depot is a cobbed-up mess,
it just defies practical sense to go to all the bother, when building the
depot on site was just too damned easy.

  BTW - "stick-built" framing refers to putting it all together, one
"stick" at a time.  I do not think these walls were stood up in one
piece. I am old enough to remember when that practice came into
the trades.  I really doubt the Como depot was built with pre-fab,
stand up walls.  It was an army of carpenters, some hammer-swingers,
some sawyers, all working together to measure, cut, and toss up the
next piece to the guy nailing it in place, and one stick at a time, the
structure came together.  What happened to the building over the next
50 years of operations is a wild and random guess of who and why.

  I'd love to see documentation, .... some AFE's, some photos, anything,
to support the early construction of this depot.  Looking at various
remodel scars only says to me there were lots of changes made over
the years.  I am failing to see how any of this connects to a building
that was once 100 miles away in Denver.