Denver to Como

[John Droste]

Hi South Park.
I took it for granted that you lived in the area. Sorry.

I have seen photos of other buildings that have the same scroll work as that of the depot. A hotel in Leadville. Quite confident that I also saw what looked to be a home in Denver had the same type pattern, as far as I could tell. It was a distant shot. But definitely the hotel in Leadville. Somebody here will know it and will be able to bring a photo up, if they care to.
 The windows would have been part of a range of windows supplied by a window manufacturing company most likely in Denver. There design would not have been specific to or proprietary to any particular railroad. Just a choice by the window purchaser.

 Regarding your not understanding the rest, I can understand that, but I am doing the best I can.

I might have to do another post, to talk about me. Something that I have avoided as much as possible. But I can see at this point that it may give some understanding into why others like you struggle to understand me.
 I hope I will be excused for doing this. It is not an ego driven decision.

[John Droste]

South Park,
I was impressed with you home build. You are every bit worth your salt as tradesperson, as far as I can see.

But I will explain who I am, what I do, and it may help you understand why you don't get me. That's the plan.

As I said previously, I left school at fourteen. I did not like school. The minimum leaving age at the time was fifteen. Don't know what my folks were thinking but when I told them I wanted to leave school, they accepted it, spoke to the school who also accepted it and together they wrote to the education department and my wish was granted.
I started work in a joinery and cabinetmaking workshop. Not as an apprentice, just as a worker, no training school involvement.

By the time I was 21, I had my own business. Mostly fitting out the interiors of 40 foot yachts but also doing general joinery and cabinet making. I went to the government employment agency and told them that I wanted to employ an apprentice and that I had not a trade certificate. They asked how long I had been working as a cabinet maker, 7 years, and they said that that was equal to being qualified.
 A year later I took on a second apprentice but because I was only the only one tradesman in the business, I had to take on the second apprentice under a second trade, Furniture making I think that was, or shipwrighting.  Whichever it was, all of my apprentices, I chose to send to Melbourne training schools. You see, everybody that I had worked with who had done an apprenticeship, they had fallen way behind compared to what I was doing. And I did not want my apprentices going to a local trades school where that bitterness was apparent.
 And my oh my that bitterness was there. Fortunately there were other people who did not need to be bitter, who gave me work. Actually, most of my work going all around Australia.

 Meeting my wife to be, I gave up that business and moved to Perth. There after a short time working in the boat building industry, I was placed in charge of a workshop that made the components for the interiors of very large motor yachts. 30 plus years ago now, the smallest vessels 33 metres long, $6.5 million upwards exceeding $20,000,000.
 In charge of the workshop, I was asked to make staircases for the boats. The first one was a single flight, to difficult to describe the shape. Not a single piece of wood in it.  In these staircases and other works, all honeycomb core materials, aluminium, kevlar, sometimes carbon fibre but mostly aluminium core and either aluminium or kevlar epoxy skin. Timber veneers were used to finish many projects.
 My second staircase was a spiral, two stories high. The round rolled walls, three stories or decks high. When it was finished, four of us could lift it and carry it outside, standing up. It was put on a truck, power lines were dropped and the stairs taken several blocks to the site of the vessel and the stairs lowered into the ship after the shed roof cladding was removed to make way.
 That was where I learned about making staircases. I worked with designers and we worked out together how it could and would be done.

 When my family started, we returned to my home town for my children to be in amongst their greater family, (Babysitters).
 I would have to scan photos of that work but I will show you the work that I have been doing since the digital age.
Thats me standing in front of a curved stairs. My name plaque on the newel. I love making curvy things. Comes from my boatbuilding experiences.

Here is another staircase. Every single step has a different shape.

Another staircase. The top flights of stairs in a full 90 degree curve. a passage to the games room beneath. Blue gum parquetry and Victorian Ash.

Have a look at the simple but ingenious method of connecting the risers and treads Mr South Park. You will not have ever seen that before, because that is my idea.

Some stairs that I have only just finished. All of the stairs you see, I designed myself, meeting the needs of the builder and home owner.

 Understanding my skills at staircase design, you will appreciate how easy it is for me to figure out the hotels.
But furthermore Mr South Park, no offence, need I do what you do, I would quickly sort out what I already don't know.
 The gifted skills that I have, you could never ever come near. You are an ordinary person, like almost everybody in this group. I am not an ordinary person. That is why it was easy for me to see that the history of the depot as interpreted, Stunk. And I wanted to point that out, and find the truth.
 History has not changed. That can not happen. How we can interpret history, that can change. You may struggle to adapt to change, but that is how you are. And others too. It can be part of the human condition.

 I am my own person. I have transcended learned beliefs and behaviour. I am laughing. I am very happy and laughing. Frustrated at times, yes. But it is all very funny. Everything always, is very serious and very funny.


That's me, self taught in everything. Free.
Upside down in Australia,
John

[Robert McFarland]

Could you tell me the source of the maps you posted?

[Jimmy Blouch]

Robert McFarland wrote

Could you tell me the source of the maps you posted?

From my personal collection.

Jimmy

[John Droste]

I will try not to do your heads in!

I have searched for years for the original exit hole for the TOB. Understanding that the two exit holes as we know them were at the same hight, it lead the question just why? Of coarse, the shaft for the TOB outside would pass just underneath the eaves of the roof, indeed would probably be attached to the edge of the roof. But with the exit hole being on the end of the building in Wynkoop Street, there was no need for the shaft to be at the same level. But it was.
 This was an indicator to me that when the DRG depot was rearranged and shifted to Wynkoop Street, there already was a TOB previously attached somewhere to the wall and that it too exited the wall, passing just underneath the edge of the roof. And the TOB lever attached as it was at the time reused where it was.
 The cog bracket being fed through the walls to reach the location of the TOB lever.

 So to return again to the photo that tells the whole history of the depot.

 What I am pointing out with the window above is that the window was inserted into this wall after the wall was built. And that the head of the window which would have extended through for the counter balance weights boxing, and or rope pully, had to be cut through the visible cladding on the wall. Which in turn had to be covered over with a block of wood. This area, where the window is, I suspect is where the TOB lever was originally attached.
 Lets look at the outside. I once thought that there was a smaller window in this wall and that it was exchanged with a larger window from the rear of the building. Now, I don't think so.

Long ago now, I thought there was a light above the original window. What I am using this photo for now is to point out the half bolt hole showing. Well, I think it is a bolt hole and I have thought that for a long time. There is a patch of white showing just below the bolt hole, indicating that there indeed was something in this location, placed after the building was painted white, and taken away again after the building was painted red. That is hard to deny. It is also hard to deny that the bolt hole is not level with the bolt hole of the actual current position TOB bracket bolt holes to the left.

I will go back to again that an upgrade of the building took place after the building was first built in Como, to create the facade that the building was not made from various buildings. Evident from the paint history above windows and doors. In other words, replaced cladding.

Above the freight room doors.

And the window above, are examples.

So why are there no holes for the TOB showing inside the depot?

Well to answer my own question, you have to know what you are looking at. You have to recognise the anomalies, understand why they are there. I am sorry, this may be doing your head in, but there is reasoning in this. Well, I think so anyway. You decide.
We can easily identify where the doorway was, behind the little pile of bricks.
 And then to the left of the door is another patched in section of wall. It goes up to the hight of the patch of the doorway opening too.
 For future reference, in the corner above the patch next to the doorway patch can be seen a short vertical mark on the wall. That is a piece of tin nailed there to cover the hole where the TOB cog bracket passed through. You can correspond that mark to the position of the telegraph wires board in the very top photo.
 However, the point that I will lead to is that those boards above the window that run the absolute full width of the room, that do not show TOB bolt holes above the window, have been replaced.
 And I will show you why I think that by looking at the plan of the building below.

 I don't know how well you will be able to pick this out on this site but the patch in the west wall of the office that I was pointing out comes up on the plan as a dotted in section. Obviously drawn that way in the plans to show that this section needed serious attention.
 Now this is very important to observe in the plan. There is a stud fixed to the office/ticket room wall where the dotted in panel is. And this is a second indicator that the cladding above the window was replaced. It may not make sense just yet but see where we go.
 How do I proceed? Okay, do two things here. Take a mental image of the wall with the doorway panel and the other dotted in panel missing. You will be left with the wall in an L shape reaching across the top of the room and down the right side where the window is. We are going to see where a section of wall that size fits in the depot somewhere. Secondly then, I don't know how well you can do it off the plan but measure the length of the west wall of the office, from the outside corner to the stud that I mentioned, not to the wall. Now I want you to take that measurement to the baggage room. That is the room next to the freight room, has the small dotted in room in the corner that many call the Oil room. Take the measurement from the wall of the office and measure that same distance from the west wall of the baggage room internally and measure across to the wall of the oil room. You should find that that measurement will take you almost through the Oil room wall. So lets have a look in that room.

 So look carefully again. Insert the mental image of the section of office wall that I wanted you to take, place it in the area where you see the architraves from the Gilman Hotel across the ceiling and part way down the wall.
 You can check for reference this too. Where the piece of architrave stops on the wall, joins in the wall cladding continue down as far as the bottom of the TOB cog hole. Reference back to the earlier photos if you need to.
 But anyway, we pinpointed a distance across the room where this wall would have stopped, by measurement from an architects plan.
 Lets see what we find looking back the other way along that piece of ceiling covering.

 And there it is you see, stops just passed the corner of the oil room. If you want to be finicky with measurements, deduct the two layers of cladding on the north wall.
 Above the entrance room wall to the Oil room, there will also be a gap in the ceiling. That is why the wall was placed there. That is why the return section of wall of the Oil room was just roughly chopped off to fill in the gap. As shown below.


 This all comes back to trying to understand the the shape of the original DRG depot before it was moved to Wynkoop Street. If its doing your head in, your not alone. You see, I am showing you an outside wall that looks like it was an inside wall. And I am having trouble with that.
 But maybe look at it like this. Its like going out and buying a jig saw puzzle. You open the bag, tip the pieces out and start. You get to a point where you have pieces fit on a few sides but not all. You would like to get the scissors out and make the piece fit, but you know you can't do that, you know.
 But the Como depot is not a jig saw puzzle new of the shelf. This time you have bought the jigsaw from the second hand market and you know that the person who had the jigsaw before you has cut and shaped the pieces to fit. And you don't even have a picture of what the original jigsaw looked like. You see, walls, sections of floor, everything cane inside out and back to front.
 Lets look at the floor below the cover strap on the ceiling of the baggage room again.
Okay, just proof reading my post, I see below is not the Image of the floor at the corner of the Oil room. I will have to show that in a quick following post. Sorry, There will be another post following this one with the correct photo.

 I can not bring up a larger picture than this. This is the corner of the Oil room. The floor boards stop right on the edge of the floor joist. It can only be that this is two floor joists here, nailed together side by side. To the right, I have talked about this before. There is an 1 & 1/2 inch packer on the floor joist. You can see the joist just sticking out the side of the packer. These type joists repeat as far as the freight room, and as I discussed earlier too, they are only as long as the floor joists under the office, which also needed packing up. So go figure all that.

 But if this piece of wall had the TOB lever attached to it as I suspect it did, then What The ?

Maybe because the baggage room is almost exactly square has something to do with it. Maybe the original depot was also L shaped.
Would like to see a photo of that building. It only had one chimney, in the middle. I can see that much. Maybe it had a small extension on the end, as wide as that section of wall I have been discussing.
But anyway, I am just showing you things that I am observing. I can't work it out any clearer myself at present.

[John Droste]

Excuse my tardiness. I have just copied and pasted the last part of my last post with the correct photo.


 I can not bring up a larger picture than this. This is the corner of the Oil room. The floor boards stop right on the edge of the floor joist. It can only be that this is two floor joists here, nailed together side by side. To the right, I have talked about this before. There is an 1 & 1/2 inch packer on the floor joist. You can see the joist just sticking out the side of the packer. These type joists repeat as far as the freight room, and as I discussed earlier too, they are only as long as the floor joists under the office, which also needed packing up. So go figure all that.

 But if this piece of wall had the TOB lever attached to it as I suspect it did, then What The ?

Maybe because the baggage room is almost exactly square has something to do with it. Maybe the original depot was also L shaped.
Would like to see a photo of that building. It only had one chimney, in the middle. I can see that much. Maybe it had a small extension on the end, as wide as that section of wall I have been discussing.
But anyway, I am just showing you things that I am observing. I can't work it out any clearer myself at present.

[Chris Walker]

John,

you have mentioned several times the Colorado Central Depot in Denver pre-Denver Union Depot opening and that it "disappeared", also was "torn down" etc.

Did you read my Golden Depot posts in this thread: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Golden-Depot-photos-tp10926p11402.html  ?

Looking back at the Colorado Central Rail Road book by Abbott- McCoy- McLeod there are no exact dates the transition from these two photos took place but early 1880's, co-incidentally the time frame you are referring to and Golden is much closer to Denver to move a building to than Como and logically another part of the Colorado Central, not the DSP&P.

Here again is photo evidence of a major change in the Golden Depot buildings at this period.
DPL CHS.X4798

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll21/id/10444/rv/singleitem/rec/5

DPL X-9989

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/9009/rv/singleitem/rec/3

[John Droste]

Chris,
you have me a little confused at present. Its not hard to do.
My references to The Colorado Central depot in Denver pertains to the one that was positioned on the grounds of where the Grand Union Station was built. It had to be cleared away for tracks, I forget 4,5&6 or 5,6&7 to be laid.
 Its out there but what I was suggesting or rather, asking, is if part of that building could be the odd section of wall in the Como depot. Pointing out at the same time that the section of wall MUST be from an older building. After all, why would somebody take a section of wall out of a new building?
 And I was comparing this odd section of wall to the part of the BV depot that has similar architraves and I am wondering, considering the history then of that type of architecture, why it would be in BV? It suggests to me that the building was moved there. From somewhere.
 But looking at the DSP&P HS website too in relation to the BVdepot restorations, the photos indicate that the building has been extended or altered. Or more specifically, buildings joined together.

I am not sure what to make of your photos, what you are getting at? I see a little wooden structure with a boxcar parked out the front that was replaced by a stone building.
 Would not be surprised if the building was reused somewhere but I don't get a connection to Como. Or BV.

As an other person mentioned here recently, along with what I was saying, Jay Gould or the UP had control of the DSP&P, the CC and the DRG at this period of time. But yes, I don't really know, but Golden may be much closer to Denver. If that is your point? Like I said, you have me a little confused. Maybe I have missed the main intent of your post.

[snapped_bolt]

  Is it just me, or does this appear to be a brick structure?


     The arched windows and doorways; the exterior walls do not tend vertical or horizontal, but they do have a dashed horizontal appearance, if anything.
     The image does a good job of confusing the detail!

       Cheers,

         Stan

[John Droste]

Stan,
the near and far buildings are stone.
The little structure in-between, timber.

John

[Chris Walker]

Stan,

You can click on the direct link to the full photo at the DPL, found under the above posted picture enlargements.  That often helps get perspective on things by not over concentrating on pixelation.

The Golden Freighthouse on the left was Brick as was the Loveland, Welch and Fisher Warehouse on the right.  The building I refer to for discussion in the first photo is the *Wooden 1872 Colorado Central Depot *seen in the middle.   That is obviously not the same building in the second of the two pictures filched from my above quoted post regarding the subtle differences in the later day Washington Ave located (C&S) Depot.

And John, Golden is only 17 rail miles from Denver vs 88 miles Den. to Como if you get my drift.

EDIT:
** My reference to this building as Wooden 1872 Depot is in error.  The Western half of the Freighthouse was the Brick 1872 Colorado Central Depot.  The Wooden building between the two Brick structures was listed as a Baggage Room.  This small building was obviously replaced by a larger frame building that bears a close similarity to the 3rd Golden Depot at Washington St.

[John Droste]

Chris, I am aware of your drift being on the Pacific Rim and all.

I do have some awareness of Golden. It had a third rail for a period of time. But other than that and an initial interest in the brewery, it does not interest me.
 From the brief glance that I had, it looked like there were two tiny seperate structures there and one was removed in order to build the far stone building warehouse. It had a flat roof. The other, a pitched roof, and set forward a little.

Not going back to check, just going on short term memory.

Although very much aware of how much buildings were moved at the time, it would indeed be fascinating to see one shack replaced with another. Or indeed then a smaller one if the two shacks were actually one building when the remainder of the town was expanding.

[ComoDepot]

Golden was the Territorial Capital until 1867, and the time we are talking about is only shortly afterwards. 12 years later:

[John Droste]

Como Depot,
we once exchanged emails in regards the outside wall of the Oil room. I was asking if there were any holes drilled in that wall as I thought and still think that it was used initially as the telegraph room. Even more so today after recognising the shelving cabinet along the southside wall that would have held the battery gravity cells.
 But my interest is in your reply today. As I recall, you said there were three holes. One being larger than the others.
 I am wondering if the hole arrangement is fitting with the pattern of holes where the TOB shaft passes through the wall and all in one board?



Its coincidence enough to find a hole the same hight and size as that of those in the TOB exit point. I am wondering now just exactly where the rest of those holes are. They may not be behind this window alongside.
 Indeed, it would be highly probable that the external cladding was lifted during the phase of transporting the depot. Reasons being. It would be easier to reassemble the building from the outside. There are no apparent cut boards externally to indicate that sections of wall were joined together. Weight, if a factor, would be less.
 So I am wondering if those holes match that of the TOB exit holes? A photo would help me.


Looking at the top photo I posted, it is obvious that something was on the wall before this window was installed. Evident by the white paint.
Below is a picture of the window that I think may have been exchanged with the one in the top photo. I think it is the shorter window from the back of the depot.

So that is the same type of renewed paint scheme as above the freight door openings.

But Como Depot, my main interest today is regarding those holes in the external wall of the Oil room. Are they at the same level and are they the same size as those of the TOB exit hole?

[John Droste]

What I was trying to say was, If the building was reclad  in Como from recycled boards, boards with holes in them may reappear anywhere for no apparent reason. Unless we understand the history of coarse.

Bye and bye, if there was a shortage of the particular external cladding used, that would explain the use of the timber shingles between the depot and the hotel. 1881.

[Robert McFarland]

Don't you mean 9 boards wide?

[John Droste]

Give me a break!
9 boards with a V groove.
Yes Robert. Thanks for your correction.

[Chris Walker]

John Droste wrote

What I was trying to say was, If the building was reclad  in Como from recycled boards, boards with holes in them may reappear anywhere for no apparent reason. Unless we understand the history of coarse.

Bye and bye, if there was a shortage of the particular external cladding used, that would explain the use of the timber shingles between the depot and the hotel. 1881.

John, and other interested parties  

Your 12th picture in this post way back on pg 1 http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Denver-to-Como-tp6568p9517.html
"That is because it is actually timber shingles or tiles, as you wish.
 I think it is still tiles or shingles in this photo taken much later. "

and again on pg5 http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Denver-to-Como-tp6568p10419.html
"Here it is. The photo showing what I call a shingled wall on the north end of the depot. This is an image that was compressed when moving files from one computer to another. I lost a lot of good stuff doing that, including the former photos posted.
When the file was good, the glazing bars of the window were clearly visible. As was the shingles on the wall. Just have a look how neat the brickwork is next to the hotel keeper in the above window and what you might like to excuse as pixelations in the north wall.
I could show you close up colour photos of that wall with the paint peeling off. First coat appears to have been red. "

One of the dangers of copying and enlarging is pixellation, the fact that the Clapboard(Weatherboard here:dunno what it's called in Oz) was clearly visible in this earlier time frame photo, could somehow be removed and reclad with Shingles yet again eludes me.

Park County Archives

Your 12th picture (pg 1 post) which you assert to be Shingles has just popped up on EBAY


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Colorado-Southern-C-S-Engine-9-with-train-at-Como-in-1930-8x10-Photo/302763814816?hash=item467e212fa0:g:Eh0AAOSwTmtZ~sYf

[ComoDepot]

Nothing to suggest that the siding on the north end has changed since 1885

I assume the wood in the tender was scrap being loaded. We cleaned up the area quite a bit when we ran Kate Friday/Saturday, all the scrap lying around was loaded and burnt.

We have passed the missing No 9 Photo in Breckenridge to Breckenridge, partly as a thanks for all their help.

[John Droste]

Good work Chris,
The latter photo is indeed clap board.