Phase I /1902 C&S Coals

[Mike Trent]

Thanks, Jim. This is very helpful.

[Jim Courtney]

Here is a Phase 1 (1902) coal car in the 1930s; no outside chain roller . . .





And two Phase 1 coal cars at Baileys in 1926; no chain rollers on the car on the left . . .





As visible in the Baileys photo, one other thing to consider, as you paint and letter your coal cars: the Phase 1 cars never carried the block lettering, just the original Colorado Road herald, with the button herald coming along in the mid-1920s.


It is a shame, really, the block lettering scheme, on coal cars was very attractive, IMHO, as on this Phase 3 SUF coal car . . .



Denver, 1940. John Maxwell photo.

[Mike Trent]

What?!!! Really? No block lettering on Type 1 Coals? OK, Buttons it is X2.

What about Type 0's?

[Chris Walker]

Mike, I'm sure that the Ph- 0 had the Block or one of the predecessors, since that is what I'd seen in a picture that made me put Block on my Ph1, much to Derrell's chagrin way back in 1994.  I had been adamant that it was since the car had the deep side-sills, until I saw the Ph-0 photograph on here recently in Jim's thread on such I suppose.

[Jim Courtney]

As to block lettering on the St Charles coal cars, I don't know.

But most of them, almost 100, were sold in the fall of 1925. By the 1930s, your modeling era, there may not have been any left in service.

Here is one survivor of the sale, at Baileys in 1926:





I see no evidence of the block lettering. There is a hint of the original "C&S" on the lower side sill, perhaps the original St Charles lettering.

A few of the St Charles (Phase 0) 3 and 4-board coal cars were rebuilt with movable ends in the early 1920s, renumbered into the 4600 car series, and these seem to have survived. Here is 3-board St Charles coal car 4601, with button herald, in the early 1930s:


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/42966/rec/4



From all the photos I've seem of C&S coal cars, each class of car seems to have carried its original builders lettering until the cars were repainted to the button scheme in the mid 1920s. By then, most lettering may have been illegible. Since the Phase 2 (1907) and the Phase 3 SUF cars (1910) were the only ones delivered with the block monogram, these seem to be the only classes to survive with the block lettering into the 1930s.

[Mike Trent]

Thanks, Jim. I am still amazed at some of the wonders we have at our fingertips today. Who would have imagined this could be possible? Type an obscure question and friends from everywhere have answers. Pretty amazing.

[Jim Courtney]

Chris, some of the Peninsular 30 foot coal cars did survive until the late 'teens, early twenties.

Some were rebuilt with notched side sills, like on the phase 1 coal cars. After the C&S finished building the modern freight car fleet from 1906-1910, many of these cars were shopped and the block monogram was applied. The block monogram was also applied to some of the surviving Peninsular 30 foot boxcars.





The spotting feature for the Peninsular coal cars was the extra stake pockets, centered between each stake. In the c1912 photo above, the two cars with the block C&S monogram are re-shopped Peninsular cars. The car in the center is a 1902 (phase 1) coal car in its original, albeit already weathered, lettering.





A string of coal cars at a familiar mill. From left to right: a) 1907 (phase 2) coal car with block C&S, b) Peninsular coal car, c) Peninsular coal car with block C&S, d) St Charles coal car, e) 1907 (phase 2) coal car with block C&S, f) 1902 (phase 1) coal car, g) Peninsular coal car, h) Peninsular coal car with block C&S.


But wait a minute, hang on!

Chris is right, some of the St Charles coal cars did receive the C&S block monogram:




Three-board St Charles coal car 4080 (?) and Peninsular 30 foot boxcar 7714 have both been repainted with the block monogram c1913.




And of course, St Charles four-board coal car 4189 has the block monogram c1913.

But again, it isn't clear whether any of the St Charles coals survivied into the 1930s.

Mike, have you considered lettering one of your Phase 1 coal cars in the original lettering, weathered to near illegibility, with a fresh car number on the lower side sill?  Leadville Shops has O scale decals for the original phase 1 lettering, in their set CWDO-51:

[Mike Trent]

I debated with myself as to whether or not I should start a new thread on this, but decided that it is most appropriate to put this update on Dickey doin's into this thread, as it deals with the excellent work so many have done on these most interesting cars. And while I can't produce evidence of any of my excellent work on these cars, they certainly do contain most excellent work from Bob Stears.

Back in April, I was able to buy a Cimarron Model Works C&S Cinder Car (Phase 1 St Charles version) from a friend on an email list I participate in. I had no idea at the time who Cimarron was, or even that these kits had ever been produced. After he shipped it, he mentioned that he had a C&S Gondola kit as well, and asked if I might want that. I have 6 Grandt Phase 3 cars, so I wasn't really all that keen for a 7th, but I asked if it might be a wood framed car, and to my astonishment, it was. So I hopped right on it, thinking it might be something I could use or improve. I had low expectations of resin cast bodys.

When the first kit arrived, I was stunned at the quality of the Cinder Car. The first order of business was to assemble the St Charles trucks, and they were very nice. This triggered a memory from the convention last September when I heard Bob Stears had made masters for trucks that he had sent to San Juan for production, so I wondered if he might have had something to do with these kits.

A day or two later, the Gon arrived, and much to my amazement, it was listed on the box as a "C&S Type 1 Gon". The kit was comprised of a few pieces of wire, some Grandt castings, A fantastic set of  A.S.F. trucks, the likes of which I had never seen in On3 (and would be perfect for the flanger!), and the greatest cast body I had ever seen for a freight car, with one exception, and that was the Cinder Car I  had just bought. I searched ebay immediately and learned that a Type 0 had just been sold. So the hunt was on. And, I contacted Bob Stears.

Sure enough, it was Bob who had done all the work to have done all the artwork and create masters for not only the Cinder Cars, BOTH versions, but also the Type 00, Type 0, Type 1, and Type 2 gons. The trucks that he sent for production at San Juan were the A.S.F. trucks I had with the Type 1 kit. The cast bodys are excellent, square and true, without the unpleasant odor that usually accompanies large resin cast models. Bob says that this is due to a more expensive process in the material used.

While these kits are hard to find, they do come up, and your patience will be greatly rewarded when you find one. They are not pricey at all, at about $75. There is also an article on the C&Sn3 blog about these, written by a guy who visited Bob at his home in Billings.

I had never expected to be hacking away at a number of freight cars again because I have so little room on my layout, but life is full of surprises. As Keith had indicated earlier, I have been working on three of these cars, and have just completed the underbody work.

My next update on these cars will be in a new thread, but I wanted to add these, which may be new to a number of you, as they were to me. It is great to be able to add these cars to my roster, I had been sure I would have had to scratchbuild them to do so. Perhaps the guys will be able to add them to the new catalog of offerings from San Juan.

So here are four pictures of what I consider Bob's work more than mine, as an introduction to anyone who might be interested in one or a few wood framed C&S "Coals" in On3. It might have taken the rest of my life to have had to go through all the work Keith, Jim, and Mike have put into their coals.

Three cars, ready for upper body work. Phase 2, and two Phase 1:

 

Phase 2:

 

Phase 1, yes, #4319.....:



Underbody, #4319:

 

     
   
 

[Keith Hayes]

Great work, Mike.

I wish Mssrs. Stears and Junda would bring out the cinder cars in Sn3, but they have plenty of other things to do these days, me thinks.

[Todd A Ferguson]

Keith,

Does Rio Grande Models do the cinder cars in Sn3???

Best,

Todd

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 24, 2018, at 3:05 PM, Keith Hayes [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Great work, Mike.

I wish Mssrs. Stears and Junda would bring out the cinder cars in Sn3, but they have plenty of other things to do these days, me thinks.

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[Mike Trent]

Question about lower grabirons on the ends of wood framed Coal Gons.

I have not found any photos of any Phase 0 gons which have lower end grabirons. There are several photos of them on 1902 Phase 1 Gons, including this Kindig photo recently posted on this site. It clearly shows that #4319 has them. In the Volume VIII Pictorial, there are several photos of Phase 1's that have them, including #'s 4262, #4283, 4296, 4309, and 4319. There is also one photo of Phase 2 #4415 that has them. Dates on these photos run from as early as 1930 to 1942. I believe all of the Phase 3 gons have them.

I'm really surprised how few detailed pictures there are of these cars, which were probably the most common, or close to most common of any on the C&Sng. Probably my most favorite photo of these cars was taken at Dickey which shows a string of heavily overloaded gons set off on the siding at Dickey. I'm sure I saw that on this site, but I can't find it anywhere.

I'm now ready to install grabirons on my Coal Gons, and I'd like to see if any of you might know about these lower bars, which were no doubt applied for safety reasons. But there sure is a lot of doubt about how widespread this may have been.

By the way, it's also clear that the grabiron visible on the brake platform is straight, not angled as many, if not most were.

Thanks.

 

   

[Mike Trent]

Construction is done on the Phase 0 car, ready for final finishing.

This one was solved pretty easily with respect to what this car will be when finished. It will carry block lettering. and is configured according to Bob Stears' drawing from the July/August 2016 Gazette as a pre-1925 St Charles 4 bd gon (1898). There is no left side grabiron, only two ladder grabirons to the right, and no lower grabiron on the ends or sides. Also, the brake platform is still fixed with two angled grabirons.  

Two Phase 1's will be next up, and they will be slightly different in details from each other.

These four cars are all resin cast body kits from Cimarron Model Works. Quite an accomplishment from Bob Stears for all the work he did on these.

It sure is nice to finally, after all these years, have a few of these C&S classic cars represented. And it's been interesting to learn about them as well.

[Jim Courtney]

Hey Mike,

Derrell Poole's 1/4" scale drawings of both the 1898 (Phase 0) and 1902 (Phase 1) coal cars (after modernization with USSA grab irons) show lower grab irons on the end beams of the car, both sides of the end. Both show 17" straight grab irons, bolts below the grab iron, not above.

The center line of the grab iron (i.e. where you would drill holes for mounting) per the drawings if 2.5" below the top edge of the end beam.

Derrell's drawings show the lower end grabs to be inset toward the center of the car, relative to the grab irons above them on the ends. The outside end of the grab iron is drawn right above the centerline of the outside truss rod bolt, that protrudes through the square washer and nut.

However, here is a good view of the end of a 1902 (Phase 1) coal car spotted on the siding at Grant:


In the Klingers' C&S Plate Canon Memories . . .. I believe this was taken in 1929 as one of the Denver Water Board Special photos.

Newly re-painted 1902 coal car 4350 shows lower end grabs not as far inset toward the center of the car as in Derrell's drawing. The outside end of the grab seems just above the outside edge of the square washer.

The only photo that I've ever seen of a 1897-98 (Phase 0) coal car, with modern grab irons, is this one of one of the 3-board cars:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42966/rv/singleitem



C&S 4601 has been rebuilt with drop ends and renumbered into the 4600 series, but the end beam grab irons seem in the same location, the outside end of the grab just above the outside edge of the truss rod washer.

The grab irons on the platforms at the end of the car were much shorter and angled when built. By the time the USSA hardware was applied, they were longer (17") and mounted parallel to the end of the car.

Hope this info helps. Can't wait to see your finished coal cars.

[Robert Stears]

Jim,
Here is a photo of "Type 00" coal car #4038 at the Iron Mountain Mill (I think) in block lettering pre safety upgrades that brother Derrell Poole gave me many years ago.

I nick named these 1898 three and four board coal cars "Type 00" and "Type 0" respectively (with great respect to Harry Brunk and brother Derrell) because I got really tired of calling them by a long descriptive name; 1898 3 board UPD&G three board coal cars and 1898 4 board C&S coal cars, etc.

Also attached is an end photo of a "Type 00" in UPD&G livery from the Bob Schoppe collection.

I am very glad to see Mike Trent building a small fleet of these On3 coal cars. The masters were great fun to build. Note, for the"Type 3" coal cars in my fleet I used the Grandt Line On3 kit.

My intent was to have a collection of all 5 different C&S coal car types in block lettering c. 1910 - 1912, which I now have in abundance...

I will post some photos of some of these On3 coal car models when I get off work later today.

It was a huge project that thankfully is now finished - I think. Anyway, a favorite quote from T.E. Lawrence (of Arabia):

All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day ae dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible."

[Mike Trent]

One of these 00 kits sold on ebay yesterday for $36.

[Robert Stears]

Sorry, I pushed the wrong button.

[Jim Courtney]

Wow, only $36.00 for a limited edition Bob Stears 1898 four board coal??

Can you post the link to the eBay listing, Mike?

Bob did an incredible job on the master!  All the little bolt heads on the corner irons, eight per corner iron, 16 corner irons per car. And he captured the two vertical rows of bolt heads on the ends, marking where the outside end stakes (as in the UPD&G photo) were moved to the inside of the end, as in the 1913 photo of 4188.

The other photo that Bob posted of the 1898 four board coal, shows that particular car was re-letterd from the St Charles Roman lettering as-built, to "The Colorado Road" box herald scheme of the early 1900s. I've never seen a photo of one of this class of coal cars so lettered.

What a great fourth of July!!

[Mike Trent]

Hi, Jim. The ebay link redirects to another item now, but the listing number was ( 323319517136 ).

It was a 3 board 1897 coal, not the 1898 4 board. I might have gone pretty hard for another 1898. But I really don't need any more coal cars, do I?

These things are pretty addictive, though, and I hope they will be reintroduced by the new consolidated San Juan Car Co. Maybe even in other scales?

Since this is officially the "Phase 1" thread, I'll include a pic of the first of the Phase 1's that is also ready for the paint shop. This car does not have the lower end irons that #4319 will have, and still retains the double irons on the brake platform. So it reflects an earlier visage of the cars. I'm still weighing whether or not this car will be finished in ancient livery, run down with stenciled numbers, or block style. You planted the seed for a refugee appearance some time ago, Jim. I really am thinking about it. Car #4291:

[Keith Hayes]

How about a 20s or 30s image of a coal with the 'Z' coupler lift iron?

[Chris Walker]

A end or B end ?