Phase I /1902 C&S Coals

[Lee Gustafson]

John,

Your work is in the "master class". I left HOn3 for On3 in order to see what I was working on. The picture of your parts in relation to your fingers give a perspective that truly is impressive. The fact that you will make multiple parts that size that will be uniform makes the process all the more impressive. Please keep the pictures coming.

Lee Gustafson

[Keith Hayes]

I am not worthy!!

[John Greenly]

Just watched the 4th of July train parade here:



Looks like they recruited a stand-in for the missing phase 2 coal car.

I just noticed the guy behind the Ford touring car-- he must have celebrated a little already…

Happy 4th!

John

Keith, you see I have a very, very long way to go before I think about beautiful backdrops for my layout!!

[Jim Courtney]

Our resident C&S blacksmith, John Greenly, just sent me a test set of his forged tie rods for the St Charles and 1902 coal cars.

I've test fit some to see how they look and fit:














My photography doesn't do them justice. The top, folded bracket fits perfectly, and has an embossed rivet/bolt head on each side.

I've carefully removed them for later installation after the interior is painted and weathered.  Can't decide whether to blacken them chemically or paint them a rusty color.  Is there a "rusty" chemical coloring agent?

Wonderful work, John!!

[Bill Uffelman]

Rods add an extra dimension to a great build. I think that a mostly rust color is best as the loads would scrape off any paint. Blacken then streak on shades of  rust.

Bill Uffelman

On Friday, July 28, 2017, 10:21:02 PM EDT, Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Our resident C&S blcaksmith, John Greenly, just sent me a test set of his forged tie rods for the St Charles and 1902 coal cars.

I've test fit some to see how they look and fit:














My photography doesn't do them justice. The top, folded bracket fits perfectly, and has an embossed rivet/bolt head on each side.

I've carefully removed them for later installation after the interior is painted and weathered.  Can't decide whether to blacken them chemically or paint them a rusty color.

Wonderful work, John!!

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NAML

[Lee Gustafson]

It's ashamed to paint the model. The unfinished model is an x-ray of the different parts that have gone into the build. This is not an injection molded model but a finely crafted parts built model. Thanks for the ability to study it for the craft of fine model building that it represents. Maybe you've built two or three and can leave one in its "raw" state!?  ;-)

Lee Gustafson

[Jim Courtney]

Maybe you've built two or three and can leave one in its "raw" state!?

Naw . . . I'm determined to finish this car before I die. Otherwise I won't have a chance to apply my Leadville Shops lettering by Bob Stears.

[John Greenly]

Jim,

it's a real pleasure to add a little bit to your beautiful coal car, so crisply and accurately built.  Can't wait to see it painted and lettered!

The rods are, as you probably found, fairly soft from annealing except for the forged end which is work-hardened, so it's easy to bend  them slightly into close contact with the sides if you wish in final assembly.   Again, for reference, the photo on p. 67 of the NG Pict. VIII is the best inside-the-car view I've seen.  

On very worn car sides sometimes the top board is so eroded that the rod top ends stand proud of the board. This would be a neat little detail for an old, heavily weathered car- I might do that with a future car of my own.  

Cheers,
John

I also need to make a die to produce more HO scale rods for my own use (.012" wire instead of these .015" S scale rods).  If there is interest in using rods in either scale, send me an email.

[John Greenly]

I meant to ask:  does anybody know exactly what the fastener was through the flattened top end of the rods?  Looks maybe like a square-head bolt on the inside with a nut on the outside, but I haven't seen a clear enough photo to be sure.  If I had this information I might be able to improve the die to make more realistic fasteners.

thanks,
John

[Jim Courtney]

On very worn car sides sometimes the top board is so eroded that the rod top ends stand proud of the board. This would be a neat little detail for an old, heavily weathered car

Since my St Charles car will be a part of my 1909 equipment roster, it will be 10 years old.  I might just add this detail to one of the fasteners.  I haven't roughed up the tops of the sides yet.

[Chris Walker]

John,
 
Square nuts and heads bolts on metal to metal, coach(cup) bolts on wood to metal.


Jim,
keep mind that the C&S and predecessors used hand shovelling methods to empty cars so the tops wore differently to the D&RG those that were revolved to empty.  (Just in case you look at the later pictures of the more popular.)  The edges of the top board usually rounded off from being slapped repeatedly with a shovel.

[John Greenly]

Square nuts and heads bolts on metal to metal, coach(cup) bolts on wood to metal.

Chris-- great, thanks.  That's an interesting challenge, I'll have to try to do it.

We call them carriage bolts (I assume that's what you're referring to?)

thanks
John

[Keith Hayes]

More Phase I coals.

[snapped_bolt]

   Evening, folks

    I have a question- what do those body bolsters resemble the closest- the GL C&S caboose bolsters, or the stock car bolsters?

    There are 8 of these scratchbuilt cars waiting to be finished here. Hopefully I can get them together soon. They have sat around in a box waiting for attention for ages. Maybe a little more.

    Cheers

     Stan

[Mike Trent]

Greetings,

I'm working on a pair of Cimarron Phase 1 Coal Gons, having been inspired and motivated following this thread. Also, some dumb luck in being able to find a couple of Cimarron kits, which until a month or so ago I had no idea had ever been produced.

I'll have a lot to say about these great kits later, but for the time being, I want to pose a question. I've been working on the bodys, and have reached the point where I'm ready to lay in the brake rigging. In order to do that, I customarily first put in associated details such as the side chain rollers and staff rollers. I encountered  a surprise today, as I came to realize the brake staff on the type 1 cars drops through the timbers adjacent to the coupler, rather than into a cast steel roller. The second surprise came a few minutes later when I found that I was unable to find any pictures of Type 1 Coal cars that showed a side chain roller which is typical of C&S freight cars.

Last month I finished my first Cimarron kit, which was a type 1 St Charles cinder car. That car did not have a side chain roller, as the rod traveled over the truck to a roller at the end of the staff. Made sense, as it was such an early car. Today, it appears that unlike Type 1 Boxcars and Type 1 Stock cars, the Type 1 Coal cars do not have side chain rollers.

If anyone (Chris?) can find a picture of a Type 1 Coal Gon with a side chain roller, I'd like to see it.

Bob Stears has written that he doesn't think any of the Type 00, Type 0, or Type 1 Coal Gons had side chain rollers.

I'd like to have some confidence in this as I move ahead with these cars, but I sure am inclined to think Bob's comments are correct.

I also wrote Keith, he is confused by this as the length of travel to the brake staff over the truck must have been supported.

It seems likely to me that the lack of chain roller has to do with the close proximity of the staff to the coupler, which is several inches closer to the center than if the staff was offset further outboard.

In all my years of modeling C&S, this is my first experience with wood framed coal cars. I had always thought this would require a scratchbuilding effort, so finding myself in the middle of this has been a very pleasant surprise. And a learning experience.

Are the Phase 2 cars like this also? Or do they have steel cast rollers with a more conventional offset brake staff?            

[Chris Walker]

If anyone (Chris?) can find a picture of a Type 1 Coal Gon with a side chain roller, I'd like to see it.  Bob Stears has written that he doesn't think any of the Type 00, Type 0, or Type 1 Coal Gons had side chain rollers.

I would say you are right, the Ph1 Coalcars had the fabricated barframe for the Staff and didn't need the outside roller casting.  Harry Brunk had lots to say on the casting in his NG&SL Gazette articles on the Coals.  All this is way back in my memory files.  

[Mike Trent]

Thanks, Chris! Onward! Any ideas about the Type 2's?

[Chris Walker]

Again from memory....the Ph2 were the first with the Chain roller casting, I'll look tonight for Harry's articles.

[Keith Hayes]

Full disclosure,  I just do what Jim tells me to do.

[Jim Courtney]

Actually, Mike, as originally built, none of the C&S freight cars was equipped with the outside chain roller.

In the back of Grandt's C&S rolling stock pictorial, there are erection drawings for the standard C&S "phase 3" steel underframe (1908-1910) and the "Phase 2" coal cars of 1907 (pages 221 and 222).

The Phase 2 and 3 cars were the first C&S cars equipped with the larger K-type brake cylinder. Consequently, the main brake lever was located further toward the "B" end of the car (between the "B" needle beam and the "B" end of the car on the phase 2 coal cars, box cars and stock cars). The lower brake staff bracket for winding the brake chain and the brake staff were located much further outboard than the later location. The drawings show the brake staff connecting rod ran from the main brake lever to near the end of the car, just under and near the outside edge of the intermediate frame sill.

The Phase 1 boxcars (1906-07) were the first house cars to use a cast coupler pocket. The brake staff was also located outboard when built.


This Phase 1 boxcar, newly delivered. Note the outboard brake cylinder.



A phase 3 SUF boxcar around 1912. Note the lack of lateral running boards and outboard brake staff.


This arrangement was likely unsatisfactory, and when the cars were rebuilt with USSA hardware in the mid to late 'teens, lateral running boards were added to the metal roofs of the phase 2 and 3 boxcars and phase 3 stock cars. The outside chain roller bracket seems to have been applied then, with the brake staff and lower staff bracket moved toward the center of the car, up next to the cast coupler pockets.

The St Charles cars (coal and box cars) and the "Phase 1" stock cars (1900) and coal cars (1902) all had wood coupler buffer blocks; as built, the brake staff penetrated the outside edge of the buffer block, and the brake rod from the main brake lever ran tucked up close to the outside edge of the center sill.

The St Charles boxcars, the "Phase 1" (1900) stock cars and the "Phase 1" boxcars (1906-07) also had the outside chain roller bracket added in the mid 'teens.

None of the St Charles or 1902 coal cars ever used the outside brake roller to my knowledge.