Flanger 015

[Keith Hayes]

I have embarked on a build of a C&S flanger. There is not much information to base this on, but there is enough. I started with the folio that Jim kindly posted:

This provides the basic dimensions. Next, there is this very good side view taken in Leadville:

And a couple good end views taken earlier in the century:

and

I think this last view may be a detail from a larger image taken at Hancock?

Mike Trent has constructed several fine models in On3, and he has been generous with his information and some photos:

Mike believes that the same company designed/ provided parts/ built RGS 01 and the three C&S flangers. The chief difference being that the C&S cars are shorter and symmetrical about the flanger mechanism well.

My plan is to create  a 3d print of the frame, apply stained wood for the deck and supplement the 3d part with lots of NBWs and rivets.  Mike used a Durango Press/ Weissman RGS 01 kit as a parts source for his model. I have located a Rio Grande Models D&RGW flanger kit to raid for my flanger mechanism.

I have a PBL brass model of D&RGW OE that I am consulting with a wary eye. The chief difference is that the C&S/RGS flangers are entirely constructed of wood with steel hardware. The D&RGW model has steel channel end beams and some other key steel parts. Noone seems to take the time to stick their camera down into the flanger mechanism to see how it ticks. I will consult Jerry Day's books. Once in Chama, the Friends were re-decking the two flangers there, and I learned that the space under the deck and above the lower sills was figured with every spare chunk of scrap iron the carmen could find in the shop. My plan is to include some brass barstock and leave one plank off to show some tie plates, a brake shoe, some spikes and some pig iron.

After three nights of SketchUp, here is what the frame looks like.

From the perspective of the side view

I still need to complete the bolster area and add the coupler pockets.

Anyone have ideas for elbows and pipe 'T's' for the handrails? Ideally brass.

Another project taking place is a quick build of a 9th Phase I coal.

The AP jury felt my use of BLW/ PVC underframe parts did not make the project a scratch-build. So I am 3d printing the part instead. Whateverl

While we are talking about 3d printing, I want to extend the invitation to Mr. Student to post some of his investigations in the area regarding a certain stock car model, among other things he is concocting in his evil basement laboratory. Bwa Ha Ha Ha HAAAAAA!

Feedback and more information on the flanger is welcome!

[Al Pomeroy]

Keith,

My recollection is that the D&RG flangers started out with wood frames also, and were converted to steel reinforced later. i have a D&RG blueprint dated 12/1885 flanger cast details , and other prints date 1929 for steel details. some of the drawings are Maxwells copied from D&RG prints and some are real copies. the details i do not have are the mechanism that rotates the target.

even the Silverton northern had one. they are all based around the same basic design.

AL P.

[Jim Courtney]

Another great project, Keith!

I'd love a final print of the flanger frame.

Here is a photo of the other side of flanger 015, from the Narrow Gauge Pictorial VIII:


Frank Kelly photo, October, 1940


Don't forget that Leadville needs a dual gauge idler car (also from  Pictorial VIII):


Richard Jackson photo, April 10, 1937

Former flanger 013 is coupled to a standard gauge Ft. Worth & Denver boxcar.


Should be a lot easier to build, without all that metal stuff above and inside. The correct UP "type C" trucks are still available from Michael York's Shapeways shop: https://www.shapeways.com/product/DAZ7DQRRR/dsp-p-type-c-up-14t-trucks-2pr?optionId=314361439&li=marketplace

But then again, once you have an idler car for your Leadville, you'll need to relay some of the yard trackage for dual gauge . . .

[Chris Walker]

Yay!  What a great thread to wake up to.    Mike's ground rendition is just super.

[Dave Eggleston]

Just to add a bit to the history, I was recently looking into the flangers’ early lives and as far as I can tell the four were built by the UP and they came earlier than the 1885 date I’ve generally seen given in printed sources.

Definitive information turned up in the pages of the “Boston” South Park journal (Ron Rudnick’s name for the volume at CO Historical Society), which records a series of equipment purchases, primarily items built by the UP. On page 28, for December 1883 equipment expenses is an entry for “2 Ice Flangers”. I believe these are the first two South Park flangers, #5 and #6 (later C&S 013 and 014).



Next, page  61 of the “Boston” journal records expenses for two “New Flangers” in March 1887, one with 26” wheels, the other with 30” wheels,  both marked “DSP&P” so are narrow gauge. I believe these are flangers #7 and #8 (later C&S 015 and 016). Can anyone explain the different wheel sizes?



As to frame construction, the 1889 Locos, Plows and Equipment shows flangers 05-08 to be wood and iron frames. But there’s a mystery: flanger 04 is also listed for the DSP&P, a fifth flanger listed no place else I’ve seen. Possibly a clerical error.



As to the flangers, one item showing in the Rocky Mountain News in Jan 1885 recounts the South Park sending snow fighting equipment ahead of the train on the High Line, the first newspaper reference to use the word "flanger" that I've seen so far for the South Park--but reads as an engine-mounted flanger rather than a separate car.



Finally, in December 1885 the D&RG's Leadville forman of motive power developed and built a "patent" flanger which was used, per the papers, regularly on Marshall Pass. Gunnison Review Press Dec 12 1885:

[Mike Trent]

Hi, Keith. I remember years ago, Swede Norlen owned and operated Tomalco, which I believe produced a number of kits in both On3 and Sn3. When he passed away, I thought someone took over the Tomalco line, which included a number of nice cast parts including piping parts. Have you checked with PBL? And try a search on eBay for Tomalco and see what may come up.  

[Jeff Young]

Trout Creek Engineering took over at least some of the Tomalco line.  But their website (http://www.troutcreekeng.co/welcome/) hasn't been updated in years either....

[GRUMPY]

Check precision scale they had a lot of  pipe fittings just a thought.

[Al Pomeroy]

Interesting is the fact that the package of flanger drawings i have came from Jerry day to Swede Norlin. if i remember correctly i found them at an estate sale at one of the NNGC conventions several years ago. i would love to share but they are huge and have been folded for many years.

Al P.

[Norm Acker]

Looks great, Keith!

Should a quarter inch print of the frame be feasible I'd be very interested.

I just ordered the trucks.

And if you can build those beautiful tall blades in 3d, I'm on board as well! The thought of scratching those out of styrene or brass is mildly intimidating. :)

Norm

[Mike Trent]

What trucks did you order, Norm?

[Norm Acker]

Hi Mike, I took Jim's suggestion and visited Shapeways, where I found a 1/48 option. Hopefully I didn't jump the gun.
But if they are correct I'll have an extra pair that I won't need. :)

[Mike Trent]

I am hopeful that the correct trucks can be produced commercially. Years ago, Cimmaron Models produced an excellent series of high quality resin Coal Gons. The Phase 1 gons had correct trucks which were also correct, I believe, for Phase 1 box, and stock cars. And flanger 015. I believe these were run by San Juan using drawings from Bob Stears. Bob helped me with trucks for my flanger, and I am deeply indebted to him for it. If San Juan could run a number of these trucks (ASF? ASC?) for C&S freight cars it sure would be great.

That's why I asked about it. Thought maybe they might be available. The new wood kits soon to be released will need them. Perhaps they can run some extras in all scales for us.

[Jim Courtney]

Hey Norm and Mike,

Just so there's no misunderstanding, the Shapeways prints for Michael York's UP 40-ton trucks would be appropriate for all the flangers, as built, through about the mid 1920s. Flanger 013, later idler car 013, kept these trucks until the end of NG operations.

The photos above of flanger 015 from about 1930-1940 show that the trucks had been upgraded to ASF 50-ton trucks.

I don't know much about On3 parts availability, not even sure these trucks were ever produced in O scale. The closest that I'm aware of are the San Juan Models St. Charles "rigid" 50-ton trucks:  https://www.sanjuancarco.com/on3-model-train-kits/. These rigid / trussed trucks had the two bolt heads visible above the spring plank.

In Sn3, both the St. Charles and ASF trucks are available from PVC (Precision Vintage Classics): https://pvc-sn3.com/rapidcart-2/  The appropriate trucks are TK-01 and TK-05.

In HOn3, Bill Meredith is producing the ASF trucks in brass, as part of his upcoming coal car project: https://leadvilledesigns.com/collections/ho-hon3/products/c-s-4-acf-trucks-complete (Bill has mislabeled them as AC&F trucks).

Anyone know whether the ASF 4' wheelbase trucks were produced by someone in O scale?

[Keith Hayes]

Wow, I had no idea that everyone would be so interested in the flanger project. The computer model was going swimmingly until I got around to creating the coupler pocket. Carving this out of the completed 3d model was more complicated than I thought it would be and I ended up making some errors that blew up th model when Shapeways git it.

So, take two: start with the coupler pockets. It always goes faster the second time. I also elected to not model some of the straps that can easily be added with styrene.

The second model was accepted by Shapeways and is headed to production next week. When I get my paws on it, I will determine if it is good enough for others. I can also try to shake it to 1:48 for you, Norm. The issue there is that I don't know the stud size for O scale Kadees.

Thanks to everyone for pipe fitting ideas. Precision Scale seems to be the ticket. I will get one set for the handrails and a second for the air piping. And an air tank and two brake cylinders.

[Mike Trent]

Hi Jim. I mentioned above that the ASF trucks in the Cimarron Phase 1 coal gons were produced by San Juan Models for the kits. Bob Stears did the drawings, and as you can see in the photos of my 015, they are perfect.  Bob had just a couple of spares left over, and he graciously sent me a set for this model to replace the ones that came in the DP kit I built this from using just white metal parts. He said San Juan may still have the dies and hoped that they would be added to the line, but they never have been. By the late 20's, I believe the only two flangers left were Idler 013 and Flanger 015.

So the correct answer to this  question, is yes, And no. I have only two pair of these ASF trucks. One is under 015, the other is under Phase 1 #4319, which I had bought as a complete Cimarron kit.

I suspected the original trucks were from the original builder, which also built RGS #01. So Norm and Keith are OK using those until real ASF trucks may be produced. Like I was for at least two or three years.

[Jim Courtney]

Well, for the O scalers, it seems like there are only 2 options for ASF trucks:

Contact Bob Stears and beg/plead for San Juan Models to re-produce the trucks.

Contact Bill Meredith and beg/plead for Leadville Designs to produce the ASF trucks in brass (he has all the design work for the ASF trucks in brass for the HOn3 folks). Point out that his On3 1902 coal car and flat car offerings might sell better if correct trucks are offered. Brass trucks might also help weight such a small car.

Fortunately, Keith and I in Sn3 have the correct trucks available in Delrin from PVC. BTW, Paul Vaughn at PVC obtained the tooling for both the St. Charles and ASF trucks from the Cimarron Works, when they ceased business prior to evolving into The Leadville Shops.

Quite a hobby . . .

[Mike Trent]

Hi, Jim. Could be that Doug Junda might be a better contact for the On3 guys. Bob seemed like there wasn't anything he was able to do when I spoke to him about this previously. As you noted before, apparently San Juan does offer a similar truck which will work for the Phase 1 cars and even the flanger if the modern ASF trucks are desired.  

[Norm Acker]

Thanks Jim,
I have a Cimarron Type 1 kit, so I'll use those when I get to my flanger. It sounds like the Shapeways trucks might be an acceptable substitute for those when I get around to building those cars.

Thanks to everyone for your ideas on the flanger, I look forward to starting mine this winter.

I talk with Doug fairly regularly, I'll ask him about this when I see him next.
Cheers, Norm

[Mike Trent]

Hi Norm. These are the San Juan trucks you can use as stand ins for your ASF trucks in the Cimarron kit and save the real ASF's for the flanger.

https://sanjuancarco.com/on3-c-s-4-rigid-archbar-truck-kit-on3-only/?_ga=2.209928021.1159989049.1717024634-1230372806.1717024634


Feel free to come up and visit Dickey any time. Just let me know whenever you'd like and we can go over this.