Phase I /1902 C&S Coals

[Jim Courtney]

Bob,

I could use 6 or 7 sets of S scale coal car decal sets--if all the lettering shown on your Gazette drawings are included, each set would letter about 3-4 cars in use in the 1900-1910 era, including the original 1902 coal car lettering (still in use until the "Button" scheme appeared in the mid-1920s), as well as both the inherited and 1902 flat cars.

I suspect others working in HOn3 could also use the sets--Jeff Young could letter his planned 1902 coal cars with these sets.

I would really like to have several of your early C&S passenger car lettering sets printed in S scale as well, for my Overland cars.

Keep up the great work. You and the other Leadville Shops guys (Bill and Doug) are making period modeling of the C&S more and more feasible.

Jim

[John Greenly]

Mr. Steers,
I would definitely be a customer- though certainly not a big one- for HO decals for the early coal cars.

Jim,  many thanks for the information on drawings, I'm pursuing both sources.

Cheers,
John

[Joe Ferguson]

Mr. Steers,
         I would be very interested in several sets of HO coal car decals. I am about to start construction of several myself. Thanks!

Joe Ferguson

[Robert Stears]

Thanks Joe,

 

Which coal cars would you like HO decals for?

 

From: Fergujb [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 1:32 PM
To: Robert Stears <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Phase "Zero" / St Charles Coal Cars: Robert Stears Plans, Lettering sets

 

Mr. Steers,
         I would be very interested in several sets of HO coal car decals. I am about to start construction of several myself. Thanks!

Joe Ferguson

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[Jeff Young]

Hi Robert,

Indeed, I would take 3 sets of HO-scale 1902-coal-car lettering.

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Joe Ferguson]

1902 coal cars please sir. Thanks!

Joe

[Jim Courtney]

John,

If Derrell's drawings are no longer available, please realize that Dr. Stears' plans in The Gazette, though for the St Charles cars, are pretty much identical in dimensions to the 1902 coal cars, only details varied:  Solid one piece corner irons, different end beam hardware, different trucks. Brake rigging was pretty similar. And yes, the Grandt high-side stakes can be cut down to represent the square stakes used after rebuilds in the mid 1920s to early 1930s.

Your Tomalco kit could likely be cut down in length from 32 feet to 30 feet for a close starting point for one of the 1902 cars.

Even correct trucks are available in HOn3, from Rio Grande Models: http://www.riograndemodels.com/HO.htm (scroll down to the middle of the page).

The trucks are white metal kits with Microtrains wheel sets. Number 3207 is correct for the St Charles cars of both classes of coal cars (like I'm building), the St Charles box cars and the very tall reefers. Number 3214 is correct for the ASF arch bar trucks used on the 1900 stock cars, the 1902 flats and coal cars (that Keith is building) and the 1907 box cars, the last of the "Phase One" car classes, before Bettendorf trucks showed up.

And while certainly not trying to nit-pic Dr Stears, I would correct one small error in the text of his article:  A few of the 3-board St Charles coal cars survived to the 1930s with the button scheme, albeit with rebuild drop ends, renumbered to the 4600 series:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/42966/rec/4


So, that Tomalco kit might also be used for a very low side C&S coal car.

Jim

[Jim Courtney]

Bob,

How will the decal sets for the coal cars be marketed?  One large set with every variation from UPD&G to C&S "Block scheme", like The Leadville Shops D&RG boxcar set? Or will each variation as illustrated on your Gazette drawings be offered individually?

That decision will effect what I order.

Will the decals be listed on the The Leadville Shops web site when available?

Jim

[Chris Walker]

The drop-end variations http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Coal-Car-details-tp620.html

and re-visiting this particular car, I wonder are those stake-pockets symmetrically placed alongside the side-stakes on the side-sills?


 http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42966/rv/singleitem/rec/1

That looks suspiciously like someones Hat inside the car, a Sectionman or Railfan?

[Jim Courtney]

Chris,

Thanks for adding the link to the prior discussion on the 4600 drop end gons.

As for number 4601, that looks like a stock 1897, former UPD&G St Charles coal car, as drawn by both Derrell Poole and Robert Stears.  The car still has the four extra St Charles stake pockets on the side sill, in their original locations. Four of the original stakes have been replaced with stakes of square cross section, but the two nearest the tender seem to have the original St Charles taper.

It is not clear how many 3-board St Charles cars were so converted, this could be the only one, although if 4601 was a 3-board car, then likely 4600 was 3 board as well.  The 3-board side cars are a little deceptive, having one 2x12 board on the bottom and two 2x10 boards above. That means I can't simply cut down Mike's beautiful Shapeways stakes, as the NBW pattern would be incorrect.

And I agree, that looks like a hat in the car--think there is a head underneath? If so, the fellow (head brakeman riding out in the open?) must be sitting on something, as the car sides are only 32 inches tall above the floor.  Unless its the fabled C&S dwarf . . .

Jim

[Robert Stears]

I had all of the different early St. Charles coal car lettering styles printed as water slide decals for my On3 endeavors but can easily re-arrange the artwork to do a custom decal set to meet your needs.

The coal car lettering styles shown in the NG&SLG drawings are all available and are as follows:

1) UPD&G coal car "Type 00"

2) C&S inherited lettering scheme ("The Colorado Road") for "Type 00"

3) C&S 1898 "Type 0" as delivered scheme. Referred to a "C&S Roman" scheme by Derrell Poole

4) C&S block lettering scheme for "Type 00 and Type 0" coal cars

5) C&S modern button/target scheme.

What coal car lettering do you need, for how many cars and in what scale?

Regards, 

Bob

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 29, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Bob,

How will the decal sets for the coal cars be marketed?  One large set with every variation from UPD&G to C&S "Block scheme", like The Leadville Shops D&RG boxcar set? Or will each variation as illustrated on your Gazette drawings be offered individually?

That decision will effect what I order.

Will the decals be listed on the The Leadville Shops web site when available?

Jim

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[Robert Stears]

Jim,

No worries about nit-picking. I really appreciate your detailed evaluation and sharing of the information! Fantastic photograph. I will include this information in future papers on the topic and of course reference your research.

Just one question. It looks like there are end stakes on the coal car in question which possibly insert inside of the end beam. Does this suggest a more permanent end board construction? A similar end board configuration is seen on the Peninsular coal car seen in the photograph of the Black Hawk yard in The Martin/Poole book.

Regards,

Bob

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 29, 2016, at 2:35 PM, Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

John,

If Derrell's drawings are no longer available, please realize that Dr. Stears' plans in The Gazette, though for the St Charles cars, are pretty much identical in dimensions to the 1902 coal cars, only details varied:  Solid one piece corner irons, different end beam hardware, different trucks. Brake rigging was pretty similar. And yes, the Grandt high-side stakes can be cut down to represent the square stakes used after rebuilds in the mid 1920s to early 1930s.

Your Tomalco kit could likely be cut down in length from 32 feet to 30 feet for a close starting point for one of the 1902 cars.

Even correct trucks are available in HOn3, from Rio Grande Models: http://www.riograndemodels.com/HO.htm (scroll down to the middle of the page).

The trucks are white metal kits with Microtrains wheel sets. Number 3207 is correct for the St Charles cars of both classes of coal cars (like I'm building), the St Charles box cars and the very tall reefers. Number 3214 is correct for the ASF arch bar trucks used on the 1900 stock cars, the 1902 flats and coal cars (that Keith is building) and the 1907 box cars, the last of the "Phase One" car classes, before Bettendorf trucks showed up.

And while certainly not trying to nit-pic Dr Stears, I would correct one small error in the text of his article:  A few of the 3-board St Charles coal cars survived to the 1930s with the button scheme, albeit with rebuild drop ends, renumbered to the 4600 series:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/42966/rec/4


So, that Tomalco kit might also be used for a very low side C&S coal car.

Jim

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[Chris Walker]

I had thought I could provoke some discussion here....

if you take a look back at my post http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Coal-Car-details-tp620p720.html in the refered to Thread, you'll notice there are left and rightside views of this drop-end car on the same train, just  where was the Handbrake hardware placement on that car?

[Jim Courtney]

Bob,

I work in S (1:64) scale.

1)  I could use 1 set of UPD&G lettering
2)  I'll need 10 sets of C&S inherited "Colorado Road" lettering
3)  I'd want 2 sets of original St Charles lettering
4)  I need 6 sets of C&S block lettering for coal cars

As an aside, I could use several sets (4-6) of your early C&S passenger sets printed in S scale as well.

Jim

[Jim Courtney]

Bob and Chris,

I would think that the end attachment was "semi-permanent". In the earlier thread, ends with stakes outside the ends are visible (as on the 3-board 4601), while some of the 4-board cars had end stakes inside the ends, both stake versions possibly penetrating the floor behind the end beam. Some cars had a vertical 2 x to reinforce the end of the sides. All seem to have a horizontal metal tie rod to pull the sides together at the ends (note the bolt with nut and washer, visible at the bottom of the top board of the 4601 above), located inside the ends, as opposed to outside the ends on the Peninsular cars.

But for certain shipments, the ends could be removed, possibly staying with the car, as in this rebuilt Peninsular car 4970 at Baileys:


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/243/rv/singleitem


The only photo of a 4600 series car with end removed, that I've seen, is this blurry photo of a 4-board St Charles car at Alma:


Park County Local History Archives, negative 2857.


And Chris, I can't see a brake staff / wheel on either end of the car you referenced. But since the ends are recessed a fair bit, perhaps the staff/wheel is in the usual place, but very short like on a flat car, still able to hide from view in both photos.

Jim

[Robert Stears]

Thanks Jim,

Any particular car numbers?

 

Bob

 

From: Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 8:20 AM
To: Robert Stears <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Phase "Zero" / St Charles Coal Cars: Robert Stears Plans, Lettering sets

 

Bob,

I work in S (1:44) scale.

1)  I could use 1 set of UPD&G lettering
2)  I'll need 10 sets of C&S inherited "Colorado Road" lettering
3)  I'd want 2 sets of original St Charles lettering
4)  I need 6 sets of C&S block lettering for coal cars

As an aside, I could use several sets (4-6) of your early C&S passenger sets printed in S scale as well.

Jim

Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA

 

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[Darel Leedy]

That Roper sure got around. No wonder he knows his stuff. If only he could communicate it all.

[Jim Courtney]

I've often suspected, that most of the photos that we discuss, are actually photos of dogs with trains in the background.

Regards to Roper,

Jim

[Jim Courtney]

Any particular car numbers?

I'll have to think on that -- I usually piece together numbers from decal sheets, not use to having individual car numbers printed for me!

Jim

[Jeff Young]

FWIW, I planned on using #4283 and #4296 for my two inherited cars.  (NG Pictorial vol VIII pigs 68 and 70, although #4296 had been button-heralded by the date of the photo.)