Pre-C&S Central City map

[Keith Hayes]

I was at the Museum today and spied the valuation map:



So thus is how the C&S recorded the track configuration circ 1918.

[Dave Eggleston]

Yep, and likely as things were from ca 1910 to ca 1925.

They'll sell you the ICC maps for any part of the C&S, nicely rolled up. I've got the Clear Creek maps and also the Gunnison Division, very nice to have and a nice way to support the museum.

[Jim Courtney]

I've been studying Rick Steel's C&S valuation report worksheets of 1918, trying to identify and locate the various outbuildings and sheds just downgrade from the brick section house/old depot. Just for Dave, I have tried to reconcile the building dimensions using this fuzzy, blurred enlargement of the photo of the railroad from Hawley's to the brick depot and yards, dating to about 1910-1915:




The metal roofed boxcar on the siding to the right has a known length of 30 feet, and was used as a scale to estimate the length/width of the car bodies and sheds, using a micrometer on my computer screen. Left to right:

The dark car body has an estimated length of just under 24 foot, would correspond to the "store house" with dimensions of 7'2" x 24', listed as an old car body. Earlier photos show three holes cut into the roof, not ideal for storage. That car body may have been replaced by another 24' CC/UPD&G  boxcar body.

The light colored shed with peaked roof, just to the right of the dark car body, has an estimated width of 7.8 feet, corresponding to the "Tool House" with dimensions of 8' x 9'8".

The light painted car body has an estimated length of about 26.5 feet, corresponding to the "Sand House" with stated dimensions of 7.5' x 27.5'. Other photos show this car body to be in good repair, tight. So no wet sand after all, Dave.

Just above the "Sand House" is obviously the "Privy".

The final light painted shed with peaked roof is estimated to be a bit over 9" wide, would correspond to the "Coal House, with dimensions of 10' x 14' with asymmetric double doors.

So this is what I think each of the structures are:




There is another, more rustic structure set back and between the two car bodies and attached sheds, that I can't identify.

The sand house was obviously for locomotive sand, but would a 10 x 14 foot coal shed be adequate for locomotive coal storage?? Isn't it likely that this was for human use, to warm the brick bunk/section houses?

Which raises the question of where the assigned Central City locomotive took coal in the first decade? Down in Black Hawk, by the turn table? Or at Forks Creek, from that coal bin that Harry Brunk drew plans of?

The 1904 Clear Creek Employee's Timetable shows two round trips per day from Central City to Forks Creek:

Train 152 (Mail & Express), departed Central at 6: AM daily and arrived at Forks at 7:49 AM. The train turned and became:
Train 151 (Mail & Express), departing Forks at 10:00 AM, after connecting with both the up and down trains from Denver to Silver Plume, arriving back at Central City at 10:55 AM.
A scheduled freight, train 145 was working the Central City yards and sidings between 11:20 and 11:25. The little yard must have been crowded during the passenger train layover!

Train 154 (Passenger) made an afternoon departure at 3:10 PM connecting at Forks (4:01 PM) with the afternoon Silver Plume up and down trains. It finally returned to Central City as train 151, the afternoon Passenger, arriving at 6:00 PM and tying up for the night.

To my way of thinking, the most likely place to coal the Central locomotive would have been at Forks when laying over between meets with the Silver Plume trains. That might explain this photo of C&S 21, c.1910, waiting to switch out the Central head end car and coaches from the two mainline trains:




Despite trains 151 and 152 being designated as "Mail & Express" trains, I've never seen a photo of one of the RPOs on the Central City run . . . Chris will now likely prove me wrong.

Thoughts??

[Dave Eggleston]

Jim, we're in agreement on which buildings are for which purpose--at the time of the survey. One building you didn't mention is the dark blob between (behind) the section house and the coal shed--the dirt-roofed cellar. It had brick walls per other photos.

That other blurry building has been a mystery for me, also. It is in several photos but appears to be a large pile with a tightly-cinched tarp over it. That makes no sense to me.

To my mind these small coal sheds were for human consumption--for the stoves in buildings and also those on the passenger cars and cabooses.

I wouldn't discount them getting engine coal in Black Hawk or Central City by shoveling over from one of the coal cars parked on an adjacent track. Water is a bigger question for me as I'm not certain that they'd burn through a load of coal running up and back, with an overnight tie-down at Central. In Black Hawk the tank wasn't always there. For a period in the 1880s and 1890s, they got water from a tap at the Polar Star mill. I've seen a reference to city water being accessed in Central City but haven't chased that one down yet. It makes me think that there was access somewhere to a tap, if needed.

As to an RPO, I think I've seen one, I know I've seen a baggage car on the branch. But my interests predate the C&S. Now you've got me curious!

[Dave Eggleston]

Here are two photos, Jim, that I think qualify. The first from the C&S ng Pictorial, the second from the Abbott/McCoy book. That second one is hard to make out but I believe I see a large center door on the car obscured by the freight section of the station.

[Jim Courtney]

Hey Dave,

Yep, by the 1920's the Central to Forks run had been reduced to a single combine, due to little patronage.

The most frequently photographed baggage car in the first decade was C&S baggage car number 102, later number C&S 1:


(photos courtesy of Chris Walker)


The two door/side baggage car hasn't lost its end platforms yet.

I thought the "snowy Mountain City" photo had an RPO on the head end:




But it turns out that the long car with single side door and windows on each end was C&S baggage car 105, later C&S number 4:
https://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/CandS/dsp-passenger/bmx_42a.htm.  Again, taken before the end platforms and the windows of different size on the two ends were removed. And little Cooke 2-6-0 number 13, with the rear headlight and extra pilot on the rear of the tender, just begs to be modeled.

Perhaps mail for Black Hawk and Central City left Denver in separate locked bags, and were handled in the baggage cars, dropped off at each of the two towns by the Central City stub trains. Anyone know??

[Chris Walker]

Jim Courtney wrote

Perhaps mail for Black Hawk and Central City left Denver in separate locked bags, and were handled in the baggage cars, dropped off at each of the two towns by the Central City stub trains. Anyone know??

I think you would answer that with a photo of two RPO entrained between Denver Union and Forks ......

[Todd Hackett]

What I find more interesting in the second photo is the Colorado & Northwestern boxcar right behind #13. The C&S leased at least 10 of these brand new Barney & Smith boxcars from November 1900 to  March 1901 for use on the Clear Creek branch, and I don't remember seeing photos of them on the C&S at that time.

[Dave Eggleston]

Wow, that is a fascinating bit of information, I had no idea! Why specifically those cars, Todd?

There is so much to be said for modeling Central City right at the dawn of the C&S era.

[Todd Hackett]

degg13 wrote

...Why specifically those cars?...

The C&N had only been running for a few years, and had ordered mostly new rolling stock. It may have taken some time for their business to grow to be able to use all of the equipment, and the C&S still had a lot of old inherited cars that were near their end of life. There are a number of correspondences relating to the lease to the C&S in the CRM library. Boxcars listed in these are nos. 1003, 1005, 1006, 1007, 1008, 1013, 1014, 1017, 1018 and 1025. There's a note on one internal C&S correspondence to "get all the miles out of them you possibly can." I assume that's to keep from wearing out the C&S cars. The C&S also leased leased gondolas (records mention nos. 200, 203, 204, 209, 210, 212, 213, 214 and 217) around the same time. This represents about 1/3 of the boxcar fleet and 1/4 of the gondola fleet of the C&N.

[Jim Courtney]

What I find most interesting, Todd, is that your info about the C&N boxcars firmly dates the Lake "Snowy Mountain City" photo to the winter of 1900-1901. In the photo, C&S locomotive 13 wears the "Columbine" emblem on the cab sides.

C&S conventional wisdom has the "Columbine" lettering scheme showing up in 1902-1903. The photo and your info pushes the start date back to the first months of 1901 at the latest.




I always learn something new here . . .

[Rick Steele]

...and we all realize that C&S 13 was the assigned Central City-Black Hawk switch engine.

Rick

[Dave Eggleston]

Jim Courtney wrote

The dark car body has an estimated length of just under 24 foot, would correspond to the "store house" with dimensions of 7'2" x 24', listed as an old car body. Earlier photos show three holes cut into the roof, not ideal for storage. That car body may have been replaced by another 24' CC/UPD&G  boxcar body.

Jim, I was just re-reading though your comments analyzing the structures between Hawley's warehouse and the brick Section House. in the quote above from that, one thing stands out that deserves some digging into: "Earlier photos show three holes cut into the roof [...]."

I am not certain that the photo you annotated with the structure references in yellow is later than the photo showing holes in the boxcar roof. That photo also shows all landmarks of being 1907 or later: the expanded bleachers at the ball field, the coal shed, Neef's. You may be correct, but I am now wondering about this and need to find some time to look more closely at photos for other dating clues to put these into order. For now I won't/can't say which predates which. Details, details...

[Jim Courtney]

...and we all realize that C&S 13 was the assigned Central City-Black Hawk switch engine.

Please elaborate, Rick. Most of the photos of number 13 that I've seen show C&S 13 pulling passenger cars. Occasional photos show a freight car or two in the consist. I've always assumed that number 13's primary assignment was pulling the 4 stub passenger runs, between Central-Black Hawk-Forks. Between passenger runs, did it switch the freight yards in Central, then take cars down to Black Hawk and switch that town as well? There is the one wreck photo showing a mixed consist of freight cars behinds number 13:




If number 13 and crew handled all the freight traffic/switching at Central and Black Hawk, why was there the need for a scheduled freight to Black Hawk and Central City, per the 1901 employee's timetable?

[Jim Courtney]

You are right, Dave.

As to freight car lettering clues to date the photos, the photo from Abbott/McCoy, with the 24 foot car body with the three holes in the roof, has a couple of St Charles 4-board coal cars in their original delivery lettering, albeit a bit weathered. The St Charles coal cars were delivered in December of 1898, so the photo could date from 1899 or after.

The photo that I measured relative lengths of the car bodies, has two boxcars on the siding, both with the C&S block monogram lettering. The earliest use of this lettering scheme was on the phase 1 boxcars, delivered in November, 1907. To me, the boxcar on the right appears to have a metal roof. The first use of the metal roof was on the phase 2 boxcars, first batch delivered December, 1907, second batch in September of 1908. If that car were one of the phase 3, SUF cars (I can't tell!), it could be dated to 1909 or 1910, So the second photo, could only be dated as sometime at or after 1908-1910.

Too bad period photographers didn't scratch dates on all of their negatives . . .

[Dave Eggleston]

Jim Courtney wrote

Too bad period photographers didn't scratch dates on all of their negatives . . .

Yes, Jim, it really sucks they didn't.

Ok, I've been looking at the two photos, the one you used to measure the cars and the one with the holes in the 24' boxcar. I had hoped that one clue would show which photo was older: the billboard on the Temple of Fashion. It was painted for Beeman's Gum ca 1905 and for Owl Cigars ca 1910. Well, both photos show Owl Cigars. So that didn't help.

I ran through the photos I know of showing the shed(s) and boxcar(s)--from this Forum, DPL, books, Gilpin Historical Society, etc. About 20+ photos total. What SEEMS to be appearing is this: 1) no boxcar or shed prior to ca 1886/87; 2) one boxcar and shed, both painted dark, after ca 1886/87; 3) two boxcars and two sheds ca 1910 with all but the 24' boxcar painted light color; 4) the 24' boxcar acquired two windows by the early 1890s and at least for a time had the sliding door half open with a door inserted in the opening and it had a chimney; 5) at some point in the C&S era the chimney of this car is tilted over; 6) at some point in the C&S era there are holes in its roof; 7) the second boxcar seems to arrive after 1905 and does not have windows and the door is not modified; 8) at least one and maybe both sheds are pulled out after 1920 and the 24' boxcar also appears to be gone around this time.

The 24' boxcar's windows and stove would seem to indicate it was used as a workroom or possibly a bunkhouse or washroom during its first 10-15 years. The lack of windows or normal doorway on the other suggest that it was possibly used for material storage.

Finally, the photo you used to measure the cars shows light paint in what appears to be good condition on the longer boxcar and two sheds. In the photo where the 24' boxcar has holes in the roof the paint on the longer boxcar is in less-than-pristine condition. I am beginning to believe that this photo is the later photo of the two, that the holes and paint decay represent a passage of time from the other photo. Is this conclusive? I dunno. The one thing is that in looking at the streets of Central City in that photo all I see are wagons and horses, not a single car. Maybe not a big deal: Cars likely weren't that common up there until after WWI--but would that be true to 1925 when the line was abandoned?

[Rick Steele]

The statement about No. 13 is from an unpublished manuscript from Hol Wagner.

No. 13 was assigned as the switcher between Black Hawk and Central City.

I'm sure that they would move the Gons at the Ore transfer when the Gilpin showed up with a trainload of ore, There was lots of industry to pull and spot especially in Black Hawk.

The 2-8-0's that pulled the passenger train up to Black Hawk were rarely used on the High Line, the company preferring the 2-6-0's because of the shorter wheelbase.

There is a recorded incident about the 22, I believe, when it was the switcher up there, running away from Central and rolling down the hillside. It's covered in the Colorado Rail Annual on the Clear Creek Lines. (with Pictures)

As a former professional railroader, I can guarantee that a switch crew was needed up there when business was at its height, There is way too much work up there for a road crew to cover. Spotting Loads, pulling empties and Vice-Versa plus breaking up the inbound freights and putting together the outbound freights, and then being at the ready to take the train from Black Hawk to Central City and back while the road power was being serviced and turned in Black Hawk.

All of those spots and pulls don't happen miraculously by some good fairy.

Rick

[Todd A Ferguson]

The 3 way switch would make sense in that timeframe and allow  for slightly longer track than 2 regular turnouts.

[Todd A Ferguson]

Rick, would please send me a copy of the Black Hawk map PDF file.

Best, Todd

[Rick Steele]

Todd,

Backchannel me at [e-mail].

This won't let me Attach a file when I email you from here.

Rick