New C&S Model Building Offerings, All Scales

[Jim Courtney]

Hey Steve,

I believe that the UPD&G coal and boxcars, ordered in 1897 and delivered in late 1897-early 1898, and all of the new cars delivered in late 1898 (the second order of boxcars and coal cars, as well as the six tall reefers) were all constructed by St Charles. The similar stock cars, delivered in 1900, were likely constructed at the same factory, but by that date St Charles had been merged into American Car and Foundry (1899), so those cars have been tagged as AC&F cars. The total number of St Charles cars built for the new C&S were 367 of the various types, representing about one-third of the "modern" C&S NG freight cars.

To my way of thinking, these are all "phase 0" cars, to use the Harry Brunk terminology, all built by an outside vendor (i.e. St Charles cars).  All used the same 4' wheel base arch bar truck (with the two big bolt heads above the two coil springs). Derrell Poole has also referred to them as the "pattern" cars, as the C&S car shops used their general dimensions to inspire their new construction in the years that followed. After 1900, all freight car construction was done in house by the C&S shops. However, with each subsequent "phase" different standard materials and prefab components were used.

The first task for the C&S shops in 1900 was rebuilding some of the 1898 UPD&G box cars, as the first 5 were built as 28 foot cars, before the receiver abruptly changed the order in favor of 30 foot cars. The C&S rebuilt them to 30' length to match the others. These boxcars had been re-lettered/renumbered from the UPD&G to C&S 7722-7746. This limited rebuilding may be why some rosters show these cars as "built in 1900 by the C&S", rather 1898 by St Charles. The car numbers 7722-7746 chronologically fit between the Peninsular 30 foot boxcars of 1885 and the second order of St Charles boxcars, 8025-8064.

The "phase 1" cars we commonly refer to began in 1902, with the C&S using American Steel Foundries Co. bolsters and a different 4' arch bar trucks to construct 162 coal cars and 20 flat cars. These bolsters were used with 12" side sills. About the same time, most of the 27 inherited Tiffany reefers were rebuilt as nearly new cars between 1902 and 1904. Boxcar building lagged; there were a couple of experimental cars built in 1903 and 1906, using the ASF bolsters and trucks, but 12" side sills were problematic on boxcars. Finally, in 1907 the first "phase 1" boxcars were built, using 9" side sills and 3" spacers to accommodate the ASF bolsters, a total of only 36 cars (8067-8102). They were quite similar to the St Charles boxcars of 1898, but a little taller. There were no true "phase 1" stock cars (the 1900 AC&F cars somehow get lumped into that category).

So Bill Meredith's label of "type 1" AC&F boxcars for the C&S is confusing, as the St Charles cars all preceded AC&F.  The kits will be based on the 1898 St Charles boxcars, likely from plans by Bob Stears. A year later, very similar boxcars, under the AC&F label, were built for the F&CC, but were constructed at the AC&F Michigan-Peninsular plant in Detroit. The D&RG 3000 series boxcars as built in 1903-1904 were also very similar, but I don't know which plant built them.

Wow, a long winded reply to a simple question. Guess I'm bored, too much Covid-delta stay-at-home time. If I have misstated any thing, someone chime in and correct my ramblings.


BTW, did anyone notice the inconsistency of the builders photo that I posted upthread?

 


Brand new C&S 8026 sits atop a standard gauge flat car lettered St Charles Car Co., presumably in St Charles MO. The cursive inscription at the bottom identifies "St Charles Car Company" and date of 1898. But at the top of the page is the cursive inscription of "Michigan-Peninsular Car Co", a freight car builder in Detroit.

The Peninsular Car Co was founded in 1885 and was a contemporary competitor of St Charles at that time. St Charles built the 27 foot Tiffany Reefers for the DSP&P, while Peninsular built a large number of 30 foot boxcars, coal cars and flat cars for the South Park a few years later. Peninsular merged with several other Detroit companies in 1892 and in 1899 was one of the 13 companies merged into American Car and Foundry.

Why does the builders photo carry the names of the two separate companies a year before the AC&F merger? Anyone know? Were all of the St Charles cars really built in St Charles, MO?

[Todd A Ferguson]

Jim, I was looking at the C&S rolling stock book today by Poole and Martin.  I have been thinking about the phase I, II and III Cars and On3 models.  Is it a valid assumption to assume that all the Phase I cars used the same bolster and stringers?  Same for Phase II and Phase III.  So would the overall width of a Phase II boxcar and gondola underframe be the same over the side sills?  This would seem logical to me for each Phase I, II and III if they used the same bolster hardware per Phase and sill timber size per Phase.

The reason I have been thinking about this all
Is that I am wondering if I used a San Juan Phase II boxcar body for a Phase III boxcar can the Phase II boxcar underframe be used as an underframe for a Phase II gondola.  It would seem logical to me, but I would be interested to hear the views of those more knowledgeable than me.

The related question is are the Phase II and Phase III boxcar bodies the same height from the bottom of the sill to the top of the siding?  I believe the Phase I boxcars have siding slightly taller due to the deeper 12” side sills.  I wish I could get a set of Mr. Poole’s car drawings...  That might answer a number of questions.

Best,
Todd

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 8, 2021, at 10:19 PM, Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[e-mail]> wrote:

 Hey Steve,

I believe that the UPD&G coal and boxcars, ordered in 1897 and delivered in late 1897-early 1898, and all of the new cars delivered in late 1898 (the second order of boxcars and coal cars, as well as the six tall reefers) were all constructed by St Charles. The similar stock cars, delivered in 1900, were constructed at the same factory, but by that date St Charles had been merged into American Car and Foundry, so those cars have been tagged as AC&F cars. The total number of cars built for the new C&S were 367 of the various types

To my way of thinking, these are all "phase 0" cars, to use the Harry Brunk terminology, all built by outside vendors. All used the same 4' wheel base truck (with the two big bolt heads above the two coil springs). Derrell Poole has also referred to them as the "pattern" cars, as the C&S car shops used their general dimensions to inspire their new construction in the years that followed. After 1900, all freight car construction was done in house by the C&S shops. However, with each subsequent "phase" different standard materials and prefab components were used.

The first task for the shops in 1900 was rebuilding some of the 1898 UPD&G box cars, as the first 5 were built as 28 foot cars, before the receiver abruptly changed plans in favor of 30 foot cars. These boxcars had been re-lettered from UPD&G to C&S 7722-7746. This limited rebuilding may be why some rosters show these cars as "built in 1900 by the C&S", rather 1898 by St Charles.

The "phase 1" cars we commonly refer to began in 1902, with the C&S using American Steel Foundries Co. bolsters and a different 4' arch bar trucks to construct 162 coal cars and 20 coal cars. These bolsters were used with 12" side sills. About the same time, most of the 27 inherited Tiffany reefers were rebuilt as nearly new cars between 1902 and 1904. Boxcar building lagged; there were a couple of experimental cars built in 1903 and 1906, using the ASF bolsters and trucks, but 12" side sills were problematic on boxcars. Finally, in 1907 the first "phase 1" boxcars were built, using 9" side sills and 3" spacers to accommodate the ASF bolsters, a total of only 36 cars (8067-8102). They were quite similar to the St Charles boxcars of 1898, but a little taller. There were no true "phase 1" stock cars (the 1900 AC&F cars somehow get lumped into that category).

The "phase 2" cars solved  the problem of side sill/bolster compatibility, by using Bettendorf Axle Co. cast bolsters and trucks on 9" wooden sill frames. Between 1907 and 1908 the C&S built a total of 203 phase 2 stock cars, box cars and coal cars. The boxcars had the first outside metal roofs, also "kit" parts from an outside vendor.

The "phase 3" C&S cars simply used the Bettendorf bolsters and trucks, applied to a new composite steel and wood frame. The first "phase 3" cars were the new reefers, built in early 1909 (they were nearly built as phase 2 cars, based on erection drawings that I possess, changed to steel underframe at the last minute). Thereafter, the shops turned out 325 SUF boxcars, stock cars and coal cars between  1909 and 1910, completing the modern C&S car fleet . . . just in time for the new Q management to dismember the South Park division and create a narrow gauge freight car surplus on the system.

Wow, a long winded reply to a simple question. Guess I'm bored, too much Covid-delta stay-at-home time. If I have misstated any thing, someone chime in and correct my ramblings.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA


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[Jim Courtney]

Todd, please see the new thread I started for this discussion.

[Jim Courtney]

For you HOn3 C&S fans, Bill Meredith at Leadville Designs has announced three new Clear Creek themed brick structure kits:

The Centtal City section house kit that still stands:

https://leadvilledesigns.com/collections/ho-hon3/products/ho-central-city-section-house-kit-pre-order-for-december-delivery

The Central City original brick depot, also standing:

https://leadvilledesigns.com/collections/ho-hon3/products/ho-central-city-depot-kit


Section house on left and original depot on right, with mud-room at center door.


Also announced is a brick store based on a Blackhawk hardware store:

https://leadvilledesigns.com/collections/ho-hon3/products/copy-of-ho-central-city-section-house-kit-pre-order-for-december-delivery

[Dave Eggleston]

I am very tempted...I had been considering doing these structures as carved DAS clay ala Gordon Gravett but that's led to procrastination. Bill's kits could force me to bite the bullet and actually work on the Central City layout I've planned for the last 5 years. Adding the central building and the stoop would make quite a complex--though not prototypical for the period I'd model.

I looked at Bill's pictures a week or so ago and if concerned you don't see the chimneys he says there will be a 3D print of each included with the kits.

Has anyone done mortar on a laser cut structure?

The other thing to note is how straight and clean the shingles are on the roofs in the photo (DPL x2531). I'd opt to go that route, these structures seem to have been kept in pretty good condition during much of their working lives.