New C&S Model Building Offerings, All Scales

[Dave Eggleston]

I believe the numbers were 1564-1702, per Rudnick. What is interesting is that what sure looks like 1704 (an additional car Rudnick believes existed per the roster counts he did but couldn't verify from the records) appears on the GSL&P in the well-known photo of Crisman station. Others of these cars on the GSL&P were 1604, 1608, 1620 (in photos on almost all trains behind the head-end cars throughout the 1880s) and the car that became the famous baggage/caboose 026552.

There's a third of this series of 24' cars on the Loop bridge photo Jim posted. It's a great photo--there are, I think, at least three versions at DPL online and the trucks and some underbody detail is visible in the best.

Of note, if you're planning to put one of those numbers on a South Park or CC train, is that when a freight car went to the GSL&P, it stayed there, basically marooned. This was the procedure from 1884-1894 for freight cars, only engines and passenger/baggage cars were pulled off the line at various times. So all the above 24' car numbers appear to have been stranded in Four Mile Canyon after the 1894 flood as far as I can determine. Several of these cars are listed on early 1890s UPDG rosters, with their original numbers because they were not ever updated to UP numbers.

[Jim Courtney]

I hope to begin construction of my Breckenridge layout in a couple of months, when the winter rains slack off.

I will need at least two code 55, 3-way stub switches, one for each end of the Breck yard:




Fast Tracks has switch assembly fixtures for HOn3, code 55, number 6, 3-way stubs listed on their "one of a kind page":
https://www.handlaidtrack.com/af-hon3-w-s-6-me55

I am going to contact Fast Tracks next week and ask them to build me a similar fixture for Sn3 stub turnouts using code 55 rail. It occurs to me that the same fixture could be used to construct both right and left hand number 6 simple stub turnouts as well (just leave off one of the diverging routes and two frogs).

Could I have a show of hands of anyone interested in the fixture, if produced? It would make a nice talking point to convince them to produce it.

The RGS also used 3-way stubs (i.e. at Rico), so all you Sn3 RGS folks lurking here, make your needs known . . .

[Pat Student]

Add D&RGW, had 2 at Sargents.

[SteveG]

Given that the FastTracks fixtures sure appear to be CNC machined (I have trouble visualizing anyone doing work this beautiful by hand):



 they should be able to tweak the programming for an Sn3 version of the existing HOn3 fixture with reasonable ease.
And yes, you should be able to do right or left versions readily, which would be far more awkward with the 'pointy' version--I just did a quick check on that above.

One oddity I noted is that the center frog appears to be slightly smaller than a #4--a #3.7, if I'm doing the math right. But their #4/#5/#6 frog assembly fixture should give usable results with the #4 section--you may want to re-solder the frog in the 3-way fixture to relax the angle slightly.

Steve Guty
Lakeway, TX

[Jim Courtney]

Thanks Steve,

Ya know, that does look a bit tight. The prototype in the photo above looks a lot longer.

Wonder if I should ask for a number 7 or number 8 three way stub? But that would add 1 to 2 inches of linear run to each switch, for each inch of diversion on the other two tracks. Or does it--the head tie for a stub switch is much closer to the frog than on a standard point switch.

Hmm . . . what to do.

[Paul R.]

Jim,
check to see if fasttracks has a template and print, that way you can see what fits best? Paul R.

[SteveG]

There may be a bit of an optical illusion involved here, as we're all used to seeing the whole switch, Here's the stub fixture on a copy of the  FastTrack 3-way point switch template, for reference:



But if you've got the room, higher point numbers are always preferable.

Steve

[Jim Courtney]

I took Paul's advice and printed the FastTracks templates for Sn3 #7 and #8 point switches and did some measurements.

I also measured a couple of stub switches that I constructed using the FastTracks #6 point switch fixture, as well as the PBL code 55 stub switch manufactured for PBL by MicroEngineering.

The PBL code 55 switch has the stock rail and diverging rail 0.060" apart on center as they sit on the head tie chairs--I have about 25 of these now and will use them for L or R stub switches.

My findings:

My homemade #6 code 55 stubs are true #6: 1 inch separation between the stock and diverging rail occurs 6 inches from the center of the head tie.

The PBL #6 switch is a bit longer (perhaps different geometry through the frog) measuring 6 3/4 inches from 1 inch of divergence to the center of the head tie.

Using the FastTracks templates (assuming that a new stub would have the same geometry as the R&L hand point switches) yields:

FastTracks #7 would require 7 3/4 inches of distance from 1 inch of separation to the center of the head tie.
FastTracks #8 would require 8 1/2 inches of distance from 1 inch of separation to the center of the head tie.

Per the template, assuming 0.060 rail centers on the head tie chair, there are 13 ties between the head tie and the point of the frog on the proposed #7 3-way stub and 15 ties between the head tie and frog on the possible #8 3 way stub.

In the Breck photo above, I count 13 or 14 ties from the frog back to about where the head tie would likely be (the photographer is probably standing on it).

So, I'm going to go with a #7 3-way stub. I've checked my draft track plan and am pretty sure that they will fit. I'm going to call Fast Tracks tomorrow morning and make my pitch.

I will report back . . .

[Todd A Ferguson]

Jim,

Keep in mind the stub switch information in the Files section, both the C&S drawings and Lee Klieden information I shared years ago,  I think there are 3 ways in the drawings Lee had.  I know I have copies of those drawings downstairs here.  I have built two or three 3 way stubs using those drawings.

I’m sure FastTracks will make what you want.  Years ago I had him make me Sn3 number 9 template.  He now offers number 9 in many scales and gauges.  His stuff is all done on CNC milling machines.  You can also have him do the template to his normal standards or you can, at least when I had mine done it was an option, have the standards tightened up to NMRA minimums.  All commercial turnouts I have seen put some slop in and usually go in the middle of the tolerances.  The FastTrack templates make track that works very well.

The other option would be to have Steve from Railway Engineering build the 3 ways for you.  I believe he is in Arizona now.  He builds very nice turnouts too.

Todd

[Todd A Ferguson]

Steve, building stub switches using the regular point switch templates is not very difficult.  I have done a few with my number 9 Sn3 template just for grins.  I think FastTracks even published a document describing how they would do it.

I simply let the length of the rails run until they are separated by the clearance on an NMRA gauge.  That is where the head tie goes and the rails get cut to length.  The length of the thrown rails can be determined from the formula in Lee Kleiden’s information in the Files section.  But if one gets the 3 way stub template building the 2 way stubs will have the same geometry...but just the single frog of course...

You can also probably use the template to build with the middle frog and make a wye stub switch too...

Todd

[Jim Courtney]

Well . . . another good idea that didn't work.

I emailed Terry Firth at Fast Tracks. He said that at the present time they are unable to take on any custom work. "We may start accepting custom orders again in the future, but right now we are pretty much at production capacity."


I guess in the year of the Covid, anyone with disposable monies is buying Fast Tracks fixtures / tools and is staying home and building track switches.

Todd, is Steve Hatch still offering to build track switches? I had heard that he had retired. The links to the email and order cart at https://www.railwayeng.com/ do not work.

Do you have a phone number or email address for Steve??

The only other alternative is Trout Creek / BK Enterprises, they offer code 55 three-way stubs with a number 6 frog only, for $80.00 each.

[Todd A Ferguson]

Jim,

I talked directly to Tim Warris when I got my number 9 template made years ago.  Too bad they won’t help you out though.  I don’t see any ad for Railway Engineering in the current Gazette, so maybe he is no longer building turnouts.  Years ago he claimed to have made over 100,000 turnouts.  Perhaps the folks at PBL would have a contact number for him as he used to live in Ukiah before moving to Arizona, I believe.

If you need 2-3 3 way stubs made I will be happy to make them for you.  Just figure out what you need size wise and supply the materials and I will build them in thanks to your contributions to the group’s knowledge base. 

Building track is one of the things I enjoy most.  I have built Sn3 lap turnouts and even a gauntlet turnout just for grins.  I have even thought about building a Sn3 double slip switch...

Let me know what you think...

Todd

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 3, 2021, at 5:38 PM, Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Well . . . another good idea that didn't work.

I emailed Terry Firth at Fast Tracks. He said that at the present time they are unable to take on any custom work. We may start accepting custom orders again in the future, but right now we are pretty much at production capacity.

I guess in the year of the Covid, anyone with disposable monies is buying Fast Tracks fixtures / tools and is staying home and building track switches.

Todd, is Steve Hatch still offering to build track switches? I had heard that he had retired. The links to the email and order cart at https://www.railwayeng.com/ do not work.

The only other alternative is Trout Creek / BK Enterprises, they offer code 55 three-way stubs with a number 6 frog only, for $80.00 each.

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[Jim Courtney]

Thanks for the offer, Todd.

But I just had another, possibly foolish, idea.

I'm going to try to build a 3 way stub with my number 6 Fast Tracks fixture -- by building the right and left sides separately, then trying to tie the two halves together with extra PCB ties, holding things in gauge as I solder. If it works, I'll probably get a number 7 fixture and do the same thing, as I like the longer look of the number 7.

We will see if that works . . . stay tuned.

(I like doing trackwork, too.)

[Jeff Young]

Steve Hatch recently celebrated his 80th birthday, so I think he’s more focused on his own railroad right now.  He posts updates on the HOn3 groups.io list.

[Geoff Hamway]

Jim,
Steve Hatch has been rebuilding his website from scratch, following a truly catastrophic server failure that wiped out his backups as well as all of the code for the site.  His site was down completely for weeks, and I'm not surprised that some parts aren't functional yet.  He's still in business, though, and wouldn't be going through all the grief of rebuilding if he weren't.  I don't have his phone number but I've been able to reach him at [e-mail].  
Geoff Hamway

[Todd A Ferguson]

Jim, the 3 way stub switch diagrams I have from Lee show a number 6 main frogs and a 4 crotch frog.  The number 8 main frogs have a 4 1/2 crotch frog.  I’m sure you can build using a template for the 6,7 or whatever you decide.  I built mine over a printout of Lee’s drawing and that is not hard either.

Keep us posted.  The only thing I don’t like about PC ties is trying to make them look like weathered wood.  I sometimes use an Atlas Snap Saw to scribe some simulated grain into the copper foil.  

For fun I sat down and made a number 9 stub yesterday using my template.  I realized I scribed a line on the template crossing the rails where the rails were properly spaced for the head tie.  I didn’t have any PC ties cut so I just soldered a few pieces of rail across the tops of the rails.  This is similar to how Railway Engineering does his.  That way they can just be spiked or glued to the wood ties and there is no trying to match weathered ties.  Once in place the top rails are just removed and any solder wicked away.  Easy.  Took me about 45 minutes to make the switch.

Proto87Stores.com sells both cast and milled frogs too in a variety of sizes...  I love their etched spikes.  Best spikes I have ever used...

Todd

[Jim Courtney]

Bill Meredith dropped me a note this morning that his Leadville Designs laser cut C&S stock cars are now available for purchase in S, O and HO scales: https://leadvilledesigns.com/




These are the cars built by AC&F in 1900 for the new C&S (phase 1 in Brunk-ese). The kits are for the post 1916 cars with USSA grab irons, so they could be used by RGS modelers to build Miller cars of this type.

I'm talking to Bill about custom cutting kits to reflect the cars as built for first decade C&S modeling. Anyone else interested in a kit of an as built car?

I ordered 2 of the kits this morning, will post a review when they arrive and I get to building.

For any of you lurking D&RGW / RGS model builders, Bill also has a new kit for a MOW outfit car:

[Geoff Hamway]

Jim,
I'll sign up for an as-built stock car (Sn3) if you can convince Bill to cut them!  I can probably only rationalize one of them, which isn't going to help your business case much, but Bill may want some for himself.  Keep us posted!
Geoff Hamway

[Jim Courtney]

Bill and I have been corresponding about modifications to his stock car kit for building an "as-built" version, that would look like this.




I've sent Bill copies of Derrell Poole plans for the car as delivered in 1900. The major differences are:

--Running board is 4 boards instead of 3, with extra short 5th board at B end for brake staff.
--All grab irons are different, including roof.
--No stirrup steps on left end of side. Right end of side has wider, different stirrup.
--Side doors are different, with vertical slats; outside door “guard” board. End doors also different and have a “guard” board.

The underframe, needle beams/queen posts, brake rigging and coupler mounts are the same.

We have discussed two possible ways to approach my request.

1. Bill will cut his standard kit, but removing all holes for the grab irons and adjacent NBW (roof, sides and ends), so I don’t have to find a way to fill all the unused holes.  I feel that I am capable of laying out and drilling the holes for the earlier version’s grab irons (far fewer!) and scratch building a new running board and outside door guards using strip wood. I would use some small HO queen posts to fabricate the end truss rods. He would cut the early version of the doors to substitute for the standard doors.
       
2. Create a separate kit (AC&F stock car 2.0): Burn new holes for the earlier grab iron placement on each of the parts; cut a new correct running board; cut new correct doors with outside door guards with holes for NBW.

At this point I think Bill is leaning toward the first option, unless there is an overwhelming show of demand for a separate kit.

Lettering would be a separate issue. I have found that The Leadville Shops decal set CWDS-14 (for the C&S cinder car) has most of the necessary lettering. It is available in all 3 scales:



The only thing missing are the AC&F builders lettering.

If there were interest, Bill might produce an new decal set specifically for this version of the car.

Bill may have the S scale early version, with the above changes/limitations, by mid-April. Once the CAD file has been modified, he should be able to cut them in any scale.

Besides Geoff, could I have a show of hands of others interested in this early version of the car?? Please specify the scale and estimate number of kits that you might want.

[Paul R.]

Hello Jim,
I would like 2 of the early version and 1 later in S and HO. Paul R.