Need info on early C&S inherited coal cars -- how were they numbered??

[Jim Courtney]

Last spring, when Michael York first announced his intentions of designing a 3-D print of the UP-style 14 ton ("type-C") freight car truck, I was inspired to pull out my stash of Cimarron Works 27' coal car kits. With little to do during the Covid lockdown, I thought I would build up some cars for Michael's new trucks to carry. I have three cars nearly complete, about ready for paint and lettering, but I'm not sure how the cars were numbered on the then new C&S of 1901.

When the C&S emerged from the various receiverships in 1899, it inherited a variety of 14-20 year old coal cars, of various lengths and capacities. The company also took possession of  246 near brand new 30-foot, 3 and 4-board coal cars of 25 ton capacity, from 3 different orders from St Charles in 1897 and 1898. The new management's numbering scheme assigned all narrow gauge coal cars to the 4000s. Oddly, the new St Charles cars were assigned the lowest numbers 4000-4245. The Trumbull people obviously had plans for a lot more modern 30-foot coal cars, as numbers 4246 to 4599 were held vacant for new acquisitions in the 1902, 1908 and 1910 coal car building programs. All the inherited coal cars from the predecessor roads were assigned numbers in the block 4600-4999.

But how were they numbered? There a multiple types of cars that I would like to build:

Colorado Central / UPD&G 24 foot, 10-12 ton coal cars:  Per Ron Rudnick's book, the CC acquired some 47 to 57 coal cars between 1878 and 1880. These cars were 24 feet long and had 3-board sides with only 5 side stakes. Some were still around after the C&S reorganization of 1899: The Parlin photo of the double header of 1900, shows one of these cars behind the tender of C&S 66:



Unfortunately, the number is out of frame. Low 4600s ??

Edit: The reproduction of this photo in Mineral Belt 2 isn't as severely cropped, the car number is visible but blurry. with my surgical loops I think the number is 4605, at least that's my best guess.


South Park/DL&G Litchfield 26 foot, 12 ton coal cars:  Litchfield built at least 68 coal cars for the DSP&P in 1879-1880, and some of the 200 identical flat cars were likely converted to coal cars as well. The cars had 10" side sills with a gentle taper at the ends,  and had 8 stake pockets / stakes per side. They rode on 12 ton Litchfield (type-A trucks). I have found one photo of such a car on the early C&S, in the Walsh Smelter photo at Kokomo, c.1901:




The car number is 4624 with badly beat up 2 board sides. The capacity is listed as 12 tons, but the car seems to be riding on UP style 14 ton trucks, perhaps a TOTC upgrade??

DSP&P/DL&G 27 foot, UP built, 14 ton coal cars:  The UP Omaha shops built a total of about 175 coal cars in two batches. The 1882 cars had 12 inch tapered side sills with 24' tall 3 board sides, originally DSP&P 300 series. The 1883 cars had 10 inch straight side sills, with 36", 3-board sides, originally DSP&P high 400 series and 1300-1343. Both types of cars rode on Michael's 14 ton "type-C" trucks.

I'm not sure how many were still around on the new C&S, but a couple of 1882 cars were photographed as late as 1906:



The cars both have the 12" tapered side sills but have different box sides. Car 4725 (left) has a two board side, while the (presumed) 4703 has the original three board sides, as seen in early DSP&P photos c.1884. Both cars seem to have been re-lettered over new paint jobs, as no "paint mask" patches are visible.

A car from the 1883 batch of of 27 foot coal cars is our friend from Idaho Springs, number 4637:



Another oddity, while the 1882 27-footers seem to be numbered in the 4700s, the 1883 cars are back in the 4600s. Note the fresh paint patches on the side between the center stakes and on parts of the side sills, obliterating the old UP/DL&G lettering with new lettering applied.

The DSP&P/DL&G Peninsular 30-foot, 20 ton coal cars:  In 1884, the DSP&P received 100 heavier coal cars from Peninsular, along with 100 each 30-foot box and flat cars. These cars had tapered side sills and rode on the 20-ton "type B" trucks. All of these cars ended up with numbers in the 4800-4900 series, like these:








_______________________________________________


So that's all the info I have on these coal cars on the early C&S. Both Ron Rudnick's book and Ferrell's The South Park Line have early DSP&P rosters for before-and-after the UP 1885 renumbering. Ferrell's book has DL&G rosters from 1891 and 1894. The earliest C&S roster that I've seen is the one compiled by John Maxwell in the Pictorial Supplement . . . from C&S records from about 1912. None of these cars survived by then, except some of the Peninsular 30-foot coal cars, which didn't seem to serve past the 1916 USSA deadline.

So do any of you historians out there know of C&S rosters c.1900, that might tell me how these various classes of coal cars were numbered and how many there were in service?? Perhaps Official Guides of the period might allow one to infer car numbers by car length and capacity.

And if anyone has any C&S era photos of these coal cars, please post them!! 

[Doug Heitkamp]

Jim,

What about the roster that Ron Rudnick published in his UPD&G/DL&G Modeling guide, page 8?

He lists the Coal Cars and their early C&S numbers along with their builder, former owners, year, capacity, and length.

[Jim Courtney]

Whoa there Doug!!

I have Ron's "Denver, South Park & Pacific Modeling Guide", Version 4.1, dated 1998 and Ron's "Colorado Central Modeling Guide", Version 5.1, dated 1997.  The DSP&P book only has early and post-1885 South Park rosters (on pages 8 and 9).

Does this mean Ron has another book, a Modeling Guide specific for the DL&G/UPD&G years??

If so, Ron, I obviously need to buy another of your great books. Or, Doug could just list the C&S car numbers for the 4 classes of cars above . . . and I will still buy your book.


BTW Doug, were you involved in building the masters for the Cimarron Works coal car kits? They are great kits, soon to have appropriate trucks.

[Dave Eggleston]

Jim,

Yes, Ron published a UPDG/DLG book. Mine is 6.1 from 2000. Got it from Coronado Scale Models when I lived in Phoenix.

Page 38 lists the overall rosters for those lines and the C&S numbers. It's pretty comprehensive--the 4600 series cars is covered on several lines that he broke down to specific sources. Not easy to type up. I know you'll buy the real thing from Ron but if you contact me offline I'll photo that section of the page and send it to you via email.

Have you also looked at the ORERs for the early years of the C&S?

[Jim Courtney]

Thanks Dave,

Can't believe I've gone 20+ years not knowing that Ron had a 3rd book. I found a post by Ron from April of last year with his mailing address and price for the UPDG/DL&G book.  My order will be in tomorrow's mail.

Yes, if you scan or photo the page with the C&S roster information and email it to me, that will be great.

As an example of answering one's own question, I found my mislaid copy of Maxwell's drawings of the 1882-83 UP built 27 foot coal cars today. In the margin, he noted that the C&S numbered them 4626 thru 4789, based on a C&S folio sheet (that I have never seen).
That suggests that 164 of the 27 foot coal cars were still in service at the dawn of the new C&S. But only 10 years later, a June, 1909, inventory of freight cars in one of the Klingers' books, shows them to be all gone, replaced by the new 30 foot coal cars built between 1902 and 1908.

That also means that only 26 numbers were available for the 24' and 26' coal cars. Ron's roster will hopefully assign numbers and sort out which was which.

Have you also looked at the ORERs for the early years of the C&S?

I've never had access to them -- do you have copies to share? Are they such that they would be appropriate for the "Files" section on this site for others to access?

I also wanted to post a photo of a Peninsular 30' coal car in 1900. Location is at the Gold Pan Shops in Breckenridge. I found it in the Mather Archives photograph collection:

https://matherarchives.com/photograph-collection/item/?cat=photo&id=9B38411C-CB26-45F8-A8D3-089150529324



The car number is not legible, but the car lading is interesting. Can someone tell me what the large half circle piece of metal is at the far end of the car? The caption describes it as a "bull wheel" (or half of one, I guess).

Sandra Mather, PhD, is a historian who has published many books on Breckenridge and Summit County. Her on-line photo collection is interesting, with lots of Breckenridge related photos, Gold Pan Shops, dredges, mines and mills. etc. in Summit County.

There are a few C&S related images you might like, for instance:

https://matherarchives.com/photograph-collection/item/?cat=photo&id=8AF41780-C4B4-4546-9A8F-089094038370

https://matherarchives.com/photograph-collection/item/?cat=photo&id=8812254C-FF85-40D9-8D1E-074813043355

[Geoff Hamway]

Jim,
Here's the C&S page from the June 1905 ORER, which is the only one I have easy access to.  It certainly won't answer all your questions, but it's another data point.  Good luck!
Geoff

[Jim Courtney]

Thank you, Geoff!

This is exactly the info I was looking for. By comparing car capacity with inside length, I can at least letter any models with a correct number for a given class:

The 24', 12-ton ex-CC cars: Only one remains in service in 1905, the 4607. So numbers 4601-4607 would be a good range of numbers for this car in 1901.

The 26', 12-ton Litchfield cars: Numbers 4619-4625 would provide correct numbers for these guys.

The 27', 14-ton UP-built cars: Numbers 4626-4789 is the surviving number spread. Doesn't breakout the numbers of the 1882 cars from the 1883 cars (they look different), but based on photos, I will likely number the 1883 cars in the mid to high 4600s, the 1882 cars in the 4700-4789 range. Perhaps the info in Ron's book will be more specific.

The 30', 20-ton Peninsular cars: 4809-4997 provides a wide range of possible numbers. The 12 cars in the 4793-4808 block seem a little different, possibly Utah & Northern cars. Again, Ron's book may help here.

Thanks to all who have provided thoughts / info. I'll post some photos when finished. Shapeways says the Sn3 test prints of Michael's 14-ton trucks were shipped today.

[Dave Eggleston]

Jim,

I sent an email to you with some info from Ron's book. The book is a must-own, it gives a continuum to our understanding and fills in a lot of gaps in knowledge!

Also, I've found digital copies of OREG/ORER on haithitrust, pacificng.com, google books and had a friend or two send copies of some for years I couldn't find. What I've found out there digitally are 1890, 1891, 1893-1898, 1901, 1903-1905, 1907, 1912, 1917. There are more but my interest is 1890 to 1910. Haithitrust is especially good but generally only lets you save page by page, but in the case of the ORER this is typically 1-3 pages max per year so not onerous.

C&S annual reports are also out on Haithitrust and other places for more insights.

[Dave Eggleston]

Jim,

I just noticed your ask about adding the C&S (and I presume predecessor) pages from the ORER into the archives. I believe, unless a lawyer type says "NO," that it should be ok to do so. I'll need to dig through the 20 or so digital copies (1890-1917) I have and grab shots of the pages.

The big issue for anyone looking at the 1890s is that while the UPD&G reported regularly on equipment, the DL&G is a literal black hole of information. At least digitally--maybe not so in the stacks of the CHS--when it comes to any kind of car counts. The DL&G numbers basically are given once and pretty much don't change, meaning the DL&G folks didn't send updates so the editors of the ORER just published what was there the previous year!

The really fun part, and this is where Rudnick comes in very helpful, is the sudden arrival of KC, UN and other cars onto the ORER rosters. By other, I mean a very few of the cars on the GSL&P which were stranded in Boulder canyon after the 1894 flood!

Dave

[Jim Courtney]

Dave,

Thanks for sending the copy of Ron's UPD&G/DL&G ---> C&S roster; more info to digest. Only wets my appetite to having Ron's complete book.

As for the "Files" section, I have C&S drawings and folios that I purchased from John Maxwell years ago, that I made into high-res PDFs, and submitted to Darel to add to the files. Darel's past attitude (but he can speak for himself) was that if it is in the public domain, let's post it--if anyone objects we can always take it down.

But Darel and Mike Trent (the site administrators) have the final say, and will have to add any material that you submit to the "Files" section.

[Dave Eggleston]

Yes, I've always looked at Ron's books as needing to use as a three volume set, with the first two feeding the third (and sometimes reverse engineering from the third back into the other two) that then provides a springboard into the UP annual reports, ORER, C&S financial and annual reports and the various discussions on this forum!

Ok then. I'll put together the files and submit for consideration. This'll take a few days, I need to create at least 30 pages from 1890-1917 (for some years I've got pages from 2-3 different months).

Darrel, Mike--let me know if you've any issue with this.

[Jim Courtney]

Dave,

You should contact Darel or Mike directly, you will have to email the materials to them as attachments, so that one of them can add them to the files.  I sent my stuff as PDFs.

[SteveG]

I just sent email to Ron via the forum, asking if his offer from April 2020--all three books for $50--was still valid, after doing a search of both Amazon and the Library of Congress website to to see these were in wider distribution.
Of course, I'll be curious to see if the earlier-reported issues with forum-sourced emails are still problematic.

Steve Guty
Lakeway, TX

[Ken Martin]

Here is a 1901 ORER. It shows the number change.

Ken Martin

[Jim Courtney]

Thanks Ken,

Dave Eggleston was kind enough to send me multiple ORERs from 1899 to 1907.

This is fascinating reading, especially the UPD&G/DL&G car numbers listed with the "plan to renumber" in the 4600-4999 series.

I always believed the conventional wisdom that the new C&S hurriedly ran all the inherited rolling stock through the car shops, standard and narrow gauge, as fast as they could, to repaint and re-letter everything with "The Colorado Road" lettering. Folks in Colorado had an unfavorable view of the UP system as a corporate entity, and the new management wanted to divorce the C&S from that image.

I figured that if they started in early 1899, most everything would have been re-lettered to C&S by the summer of 1901.  But the UPD&G/DL&G car numbers persist on the ORERs as late as May of 1903. So it appears that I can have a couple of models lettered in the predecessor reporting marks, heavily weathered perhaps:



UP 3210 is listed as a Litchfield 12 ton, 26 foot flat car, but has obviously been converted into a coal car.




It would be tempting to have one of each--I have the decal sets from The Leadville Shops.


One other neat finding. Ron's UPD&G/DL&G book's roster (that Dave also sent) lists all the Litchfield coal cars as rated as 12-tons, save two: DL&G 8036 and 8038 were rated as 14-tons, one being renumbered 4625.  That is consistent with the Kokomo photos showing 4624 having been upgraded with UP 14-ton, type C trucks as seen up-thread.

Again, thanks to all who have taken the time to answer my questions.

[Chris Walker]

Jim,

nice find on that picture

Bull wheel, the very large driving wheel of a stationary steam engine(which the Gold Pan Shops had listed in the shop plans).

such as this example of a Corliss at Colorado Springs,
https://www.visitcos.com/images/made/images/remote/https_files.idssasp.com/public/C88/4477be1f-8335-4099-bb71-2ae0411fc167/caa1f84d-8e79-4778-8cb8-9d51df421a1a/62d13bba-61c4-4828-b72a-166b8c37200a_3024_2163_70auto_s_c1.jpg

usually the term is used to describe the drive wheel of an Aerial Tramway but none appears in any of the G.P. photos, and that image doesn't resemble that version used to drive rope either.  Those castings were made in two halves, which you see placed side by side in your Coal image. There are additional diagonals which appear to be bracing to prevent overturning in transit.

[Jim Courtney]

Thanks for the explanation, Chris.

I guess this must be the same lading, after unloading from the coal car, sitting next to the Gold Pan Shops:




I've wondered what that thing was. Now I recognize the two halves, sitting side by side.

And this must be after installation:

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/34386/rec/4

[Dave Eggleston]

The first ORER I have listing only C&S numbers is from 1903; in 1902 they are still listing cars being relettered! So 3+ years in there was a decreasing population of older-lettered cars.

We're seeing that getting a full roster in and through the shops for a repaint while the road is operational is a massive undertaking. The UP used paint patches over older lettering to speed their effort after 1885 and it still took them years to redo the DSP&P and CC cars to their new UP numbers.

The late 1901 and early 1902 ORER issues hint that cars of every type were still being renumbered, including cabooses. Sadly they don't say how many cars are left at each reported period. I would be willing to bet at least 10% of the cars in Jan 1901 were still carrying old lettering. Maybe it was 20%. Maybe 30%. I have no info on that.

One theory that came to mind around the slower relettering effort is cars caught in operational cycles that kept them from getting to Denver or Como. For example, did some coal cars from Baldwin get trapped in a cycle of deliveries to Gunnison, Pitkin, BV, Leadville and then returned empty to Baldwin only to be reloaded and sent to those places again, maybe returned empty, rinse and repeat. Something like 2+ cars of coal were needed to get a 3-4 engine train west over the Gunnison district, so a lot of coal cars simply serviced the company's docks and returned empty. Add in the annual Tunnel closures of 3-6 months and cars became trapped for significant periods, with a few used on local duty, unable to be relettered. Or was there a paint crew in Gunnison in the winter? Every year once the Tunnel reopened the priority was to move coal, so were stranded empty boxcars left for "later?"

This guessing may be possible for the Gunnison District, which I know the most about. No idea if Breckenridge or Leadville or other places on the line had any similar situations of equipment possibly isolated by operational oddities.

The most exciting bit of all this is for those modeling the line before 1904. A mix of lettering and weathering (older cars not lettered yet) adds a twist visually--the closer to 1904, the fewer the old lettered cars, of course. Think about a train of all C&S cars with a DL&G caboose. One UPD&G reefer in the train. An older DL&G flat sitting stored at a remote siding. And I'd argue, if you're modeling 1901 it may be 10% (or more) of your roster needs that old lettering!

[Chris Walker]

Thanks Jim,  I knew you'd connect the dots.... best scratch "There are additional diagonals which appear to be bracing to prevent overturning in transit. " as those diagonals are just additional spokes, as compared to the more familiar Corliss design.  

[Chris Walker]

A good synopsis Dave,

that theory of "cars .... get trapped in a cycle of deliveries" is highly plausible, my own experiences with mechanical defects aka Brake issues on various cycled rakes stuck in Ballast, Welded Rail and Fertiliser service, and a couple of near-miss episodes related to down gradients with same.
A bit like the little Piggy that went "weeeee" all the way home, except in these cases it was more sweaty.