Love me tender (With apologies to Elvis) …

[Mike Trent]

Yes, Chris, that is exactly why #70's oil filler is so high, so that it could be reached by the oil fill tank in the Denver Yard.

[Derrell Poole]

Robert. There was a wye at Weston probably from the days it was the railhead. That isn't what I'm talking about. This wye is well East of Weston. I believe the Weston wye was removed long before and the wye visible in Google Earth probably post dated the ICC maps.

[Keith Hayes]

I think the tender light was high so that the fireman would not have to bend over in order to make hand shadows on the canyon walls during backup moves at night.

[Robert McFarland]

Your description sounds like the wye at Garos where the Alma branch joined on.The tail of the Weston wye splits in to two long sidings which appear to be darkened by cinders.It is about three miles westbound from Garo. At one time I could see what appeared to be a wye north of  Antero reservouer.These were from Google searches.

[Chris Walker]

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42628/rv/singleitem/rec/11


Rick, you're probably right with the galv. can as a personalized drinking water contain, something I had considered but in light of a number of pictures showing the #70 specifically with a waterbag present, and on bothsides of the cab to boot.  I also briefly considered the location behind the firebox door thus heating the drinking water as opposed being more conducive to sand use.
As the locomotive is still in the depot area said galv. can may have only been recently filled and not yet placed whereever they kept it.  However I haven't seen it stowed elsewhere either in any of those neat reversing views that Otto Pery shot. I do see where you're coming from though as we had portable galv. water containers in all our Diesels here up until only a few years ago.



If I find a coalburner pic with a galv. can visible in the gangway then you will be rightfully correct.

[Chris Walker]

And a super coal burner #70 pic.  Thanks Otto !

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42293/rv/singleitem

[Keith Hayes]

Always loved that photo, Chris. Thanks for finding it! A classic image of a classic steed.

But where is the extra coal scoop, and the assortment of flue cleaning tools?

Nice curtains too, eh Darel?

[John Schapekahm]

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[Derrell Poole]

Rick - from my post;

Eventually the RR went to the CB&Q and the true disdain for the ng became abundantly clear almost immediately.

We are not in particular disagreement here. I may not have been clear enough. I believe the C&S initially had good will towards it narrow gauge - particularly for its potential. There isn't any mention of standard gauging that I am aware of in the records. But they quickly acquired joint ownership of the CM in partner with the RGW and that got them a more or less direct route from Denver to Salt Lake City if they SG'd the South Park to a connection at Divide on the CM. Between the carloads of money they were spending improving the SG and perhaps these plans I believe they held off on doing much of any improving to the NG until they were in a position to execute this plan. When Hawley became owner of the C&S in 1902 I don't see any real change in the general attitude toward the NG but it could suggest a shift from that plan to some degree and the loss of the South Fork probably had an impact on that plan as well - if the plan really existed. As I said - no records, only circumstances favoring such a plan.

And so it was until The CB&Q got into the picture. That is when - to quote my line again - "the true disdain for the NG became abundantly clear almost immediately".

There isn't any question improving the property was mandatory to upgrading the motive power - far more money than buying a half dozen modern locos. Standard gauging probably would have made the most sense at least for primary parts of the line. Had that happened likely we would have seen a more fragmented NG system.

The "Colorado Road" wasn't particularly opposed to the NG.

The CB&Q was a Pennsy wanna-be - and hostile to the NG.

The correspondence you referenced came from an exchange of letters between Robert Rice, E.P. Bracken, T.J.Thomas, F.E.Clarity, H. W. Ridgeway, a Mr. Niehaus, and who know who else where they went on and on and ON about the Trademarks in 1927. And yes it was decided best not to remind Coloradoans that the NG was owned by the mighty Q lest they use the argument that the Q could afford to loose money on the NG. It was an age of growing socialism and progressive styled economical theory where raw laissez-faire was to be shunned like the plague. Viva the ICC and the growing alphabet soup! So who could blame those evil Capitalists from being wary of a public
"greater good" at their expense?

[Derrell Poole]

Robert. WHAT description? I said east of Weston. If I meant Garos I would have said Garos!!! Drop it!!

[Chris Walker]

John,
I am familiar with what you say re the #70's running haunts and I'm only a visitor to the Denver area in the motorway age, but to me that picture looks like the 20th street viaduct, giving me the impression they're headed towards Sheridan jct.
I'm unaware of any other elevated streets that they would pass under headed for Arvada, at least never seen any pictures like that of that I remember, nor would require 2 helpers on the backend either headed up Clear creek.  The silver Conoco tank car I associated with the South Park not the (CONX 8) and the first carload cries out Climax bound.....

just my assumptions prior to clarification, it's not like there has been anyone in the past 30 years here that I can sit with and discuss these things, that's what Darel's place is all about.

[John Schapekahm]

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[Keith Hayes]

I suspect it was a train to Waterton.

Though all the viaducts were dismantled in the 90s, I belive there were viaducts (from south to north) Colfax, Speer, 15th Street (this is the one that ended in front of the Moffat Depot), 16th Street, 20th Street and Broadway (I believe).

I am not familiar with the particulars of how the narrow gauge got from Rice Yard to the Golden line. Assuming it traveled a similar path to the current CML, it would have crossed under most all these viaducts except Broadyway en route to Prospect and points west.

[Chris Walker]

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42584/rv/singleitem/rec/161

I have been agonising over this as well, I only queried if it was Como bound, as per the following.  Everything John has pointed out about the #70 in his reply above I understand, have been familiar with for years.

Is it on the Clear Creek line or the line South to Sheridan junction?  Southbound (Westbound by TT), that is what it appeared to be to me.   I am no good at the sun shadows given the Northern hemisphere is backwards to my instincts leading to disorientation. To me, if it was Northbound to Arvada out of the yards the smokebox would be shaded?
There are an awful lot of loads to be headed up the Creek. That silver tankcar I've never seen on the Clear Creek lines but supposedly the #70 could not get to Como on the oil tank capacity.  Does anyone know for sure how many gallons the tank held?  
Why would the #70 be the road engine if that was the case?
Why would a Waterton or South Platte turn need two pushers out of Denver?  This doesn't seem to fit with the known operating scenarios (to me).

Too many what if's with this one to me, why it looks like the 20th Street viaduct to me. Was this viaduct the only one that looked like that or were there several?  Were the C&S tracks West or East of the Platte?
 
Remember I've only visited Denver in the motorway age and too busy driving on the wrong side of the road to get a good perspective.....

[Keith Hayes]

No worries, Chris.

Good point about the shadows. If this was early morning mid summer, that could be 20th Street with the Highlands in the background.

I would speculate that the truss behind the locomotive is over the Platte, if this is indeed westbound to Golden. It does seem like a long train, though. Note too, the mixed consist, which also seems odd for Waterton/ Silica.

Or...it could be Colfax in the afternoon.

Chris, I think the C&S crossed Cherry Creek on the side-by-side truss still used by the CML. then headed north on the east side of the Platte and crossed the river at Prospect. Going south, the South Park probably followed the current CML, skirting the west side of Burnham on the east side of the river, crossing at 7th Street. Rails still extend south on the South Park ROW to just north of Hampden-US285.

My intuition seems to be confirmed by Denver's Railroads

[Chris Walker]

Regarding the Oil capacity of #70, I re-read this thread and Mike's post (post#15) says 1977gal.  Now an NZR Ka 4-8-4, 104 US tons and 30800lbs TE carried  1890 US gal of Oil,  enough to easily go 175 miles as related to me by an old Enginedriver here. In my experience we were to check for a minimum 200 gallons of diesel for a Loco to go 85 miles.(distance to next fueling point without running out due to delay or other event)

So is the supposition that #70 couldn't run to Como and back on that tankfull founded in reality or in myth?

[John Schapekahm]

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[Keith Hayes]

Okay, John, I'll bite. What does Exhibit A have to do with this? It does explain one reason 302 was scrapped early after a stint in yard service: a small tender. Likewise, I bet the tenders of 315 and 316 were the ones that lasted a while behind other locos.

I guess size does matter?

[John Schapekahm]

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[John Schapekahm]

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