Here is location of 1st Como Depot

[John Droste]

 Hello Chris and witnesses,
I have so much to respond to regarding acknowledging "An Error Occurred" that I will have to address it over several posts.
But the greatest Error Chris is that you can not acknowledge an error, ever.

Chris wrote and pasted in the map I posted below,
"John: Wrong conclusion on your part.  D&RG Freighthouse not shown on that map.  Freighthouse shown is the s.g. DP&KP Rly's.  How about you examine more than one map on this; to avoid errors, or intentional omissions by the various Mapmakers."

 My remarks on the D&RG freight depot are in this map below which Chris actually provided me previously.  It shows the D&RG freight depot as being in the same location but not marked. Note DRG written into the circle on the map. And "Freight" written a bit further along the platform.

 Chris is aware of the above obviously as it was he that drew this to my attention.
 The reason the map I posted does nor reference these freight depots is because they were only listed as being on the South East corner for ONE year only,
 1873 freight and passenger SOUTH EAST CORNER
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/6701

 You are arguing Chris and misleading by deception.
-----------------------------------------------------
 Note the line of sight from the KP station to the two buildings with red roof and how the one closest to 18th street is slightly set back.
 
And now the other way,

 The original photo in the DPL to help,
Kansas Pacific depot
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/35956

And the location of the D&RG station and freight room.
1875 freight and passenger depot SOUTH WEST CORNER
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/7540

 Can you acknowledge your ERROR please Chris?

[John Droste]

Chris,
the photo that you have described the building as "1st D&RG Depot on Wynkoop St.", was the D&RG Freight house.
The "D&RG Freighthouse", was the D&RG Station. You have the two back to front. And they are located on the SOUTH WEST CORNER Wynkoop and 19th. Check in with Jeff Ramsey.



 Note the chimneys position on the Freighthouse, Compare it the location of same building, SOUTH WEST corner Wynkoop & 19th.
 It links in with my last post.

[John Droste]

 Chris,
A clearer photo showing the Freighthouse against the red roofed buildings.

[John Droste]

 Chris wrote,

"John: You have overlooked the photographic evidence that there is no gap visible between Ben Delaney's and the TOBoard building; perfectly obvious in the DPL X-23204 I enlarged and notated in my above post.  Are you saying they moved that building too?"

 Here is an extraction of a photo of a Huge drawing showing a gap between the building and Ben Delaney's. This extraction is in the foreground of that drawing. The artist that drew these maps could draw with accuracy from many miles away. There is a gap between the building that appears to have been there since before the KP.


 The building in between I say was the D&RG station, moved between.
The view from the roof of the Union would be virtually square on to the roof of the former D&RG station.

 I don't need to remind you that eight odd years ago, You posted an end on photo of the two buildings in question side by side, in the DSP&P group. Such is your manner however. Post that photo again instead of being deceitful.

[John Droste]

Chris also wrote,

"John, For the last time:
 There has never been anything in Print or Image to back up your "end-on" theory. "---

 You chose to ignore it last time. Here it is again.

 And I quote, "This wooden depot, longer than it was wide,...."

Can you explain another reason for why Kenton would describe a building in this way were it not for the fact that the statement is unusual and for reason?
 
 I doubt you will for none of the locations you know of had the station as described.

 But, you will choose to ignore this like everything else that you are unable to acknowledge. And there has been enormous amounts of that.
And that is your character Chris.
 I will do another post just to explain another error that you make.

[Chris Walker]

Hello John,

John Droste wrote

 You are arguing Chris and misleading by deception.
-----------------------------------------------------
 Note the line of sight from the KP station to the two buildings with red roof and how the one closest to 18th street is slightly set back.
 
And now the other way,

 The original photo in the DPL to help,
Kansas Pacific depot
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/35956

And the location of the D&RG station and freight room.
1875 freight and passenger depot SOUTH WEST CORNER
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/7540

 Can you acknowledge your ERROR please Chris?

John,
your view requires a whole City Block to be truncated. Distance between 18th and 19th Streets is 350ft.
Here: does this help? 



As to your other postulations:

Do you think the D&RG would construct a Veranda/Awning around 3 sides of a Freighthouse, or a Passenger Depot?

Do you think the D&RG would position a Freighthouse closer to the 19th Street, or a Passenger Depot?

[John Droste]

 Chris,
Awareness is intelligence.
Judge my intelligence by the work I used to do.
I will demonstrate some examples and you see if you can find equivalent or better skills in New Zealand or Australia.

Here is my front door. Find someone else in our countries that could build that!


Here are some photos of a staircase that I designed and built. The upper flights of stairs turn 90 degrees left and right and there is passage underneath. I developed my own methods of constructing stringers, risers, handrails and parquetry.
 Find someone else in our respective countries that could do this!





I loved making curved staircases. I loved doing things that others can not do. Like understanding the Como depot for example!



 I do yoga Chris. Search Iyengar Yoga trestles or horses. See what is being made around the world compared to my adjustable design.
Reginald, legal advisor and business manager of judge Joe productions in LA has become a friend. Even years after I stopped work he is still hounding me to make one of my trestles for him.
 



 Yacht interior design and construction.



Furniture,
 





 What I am trying to make you aware of Chris is that I have your measure and that you will never understand mine. But maybe showing what I and my staff did, it may help a bit.
 I know you are a know it all here, to the point that you can not acknowledge anything. But tell me, show me, what else have you achieved?

[Chris Walker]

quote author="John Droste"

Chris wrote,
"John: You have overlooked the photographic evidence that there is no gap visible between Ben Delaney's and the TOBoard building; perfectly obvious in the DPL X-23204 I enlarged and notated in my above post.  Are you saying they moved that building too?"

 Here is an extraction of a photo of a Huge drawing showing a gap between the building and Ben Delaney's. This extraction is in the foreground of that drawing. The artist that drew these maps could draw with accuracy from many miles away. There is a gap between the building that appears to have been there since before the KP.

end quote


John,

who is being deceitful?
I'll say it again...
"John: You have overlooked the photographic evidence that there is no gap visible between Ben Delaney's and the TOBoard building; perfectly obvious in the DPL X-23204 I enlarged and notated in my above post.  Are you saying they moved that building too?"
You show the 1874 Illustration map(yet again), which doesn't match this photographic record(DPL X-23204).



The only thing I see I missed was the annotation for Wazee St where the diagonal arrow is below the dropline from Wynkoop notation.
EDIT: And I have labeled 17th St as 18th.  18th is barely obvious there so a minor Error. "A" building is on Holladay St.(I missed that too!)  These omissions are apply to the full picture in previous post! 

Your story don't add up no matter how you spin it.  

quote author="John Droste"
I don't need to remind you that eight odd years ago, You posted an end on photo of the two buildings in question side by side, in the DSP&P group. Such is your manner however. Post that photo again instead of being deceitful.
end quote

Is that the one you sent me a filthy email over?

Anyway here it is(a screenshot as I can't find the image) just for you, but I've already covered that in here in an earlier post as well.


Cheers

[John Droste]

Kinney House then?

[John Droste]

Chris,




No Kinney House! And note the iron chimney at the foundry in the background. That is the chimney on top of a stone base visible in the side elevation of the Freight and passenger depot.

Freight and Passenger depot on South West side of 19th street.
1874  freight and passenger south west corner
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/6989 

1873 freight and passenger SOUTH EAST CORNER
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/6701


The Ben Delaney building faced 19th street.
You have placed the DRG Freighthouse and station NORTH EAST OF the building you claim to be the Ben Delaney building and also the
famous TOB building which is also a mistake an error on your part.



I can't afford to keep you Chris. You are not meeting the standards I require for my work. You're fired.

[Chris Walker]

The Building, occupied as Ben. M. Delaney's Saloon in 1881; the Falsefront(with Flagpole) faced Wynkoop St. pre D&RG.

EDIT: But Wynkoop St. runs on a NE/SW alignment.  

DPL WHJ-10461

[John Droste]

The Building, occupied as Ben. M. Delaney's Saloon in 1881; the Falsefront(with Flagpole) faced Wynkoop St. pre D&RG.

EDIT: But Wynkoop St. runs on a NE/SW alignment.  

You got me Chris,
The Ben Delaney building faced Wynkoop Street and it was "LONGER THAN IT WAS WIDE!"

[Jimmy Blouch]

I'll enter the foray one more time.

This will have reference to what has become known as the "The Train Order Board Photo".

Information for photo indicates it was taken from the north tower of Union Depot.
In my opinion the earliest possible date for this photo would be 1881.
That is the year construction of UD was completed.

According to City directory for 1880, provided by John, the D&RG Passenger Station
was located on Wynkoop between 11th and 12th street.  Freight depot still located in 19th street area.

My thought is:  The structure in that photo referred to as D&RG passenger station was not
in use by the D&RG at that time.

Jimmy

[John Droste]

 Hello again Jim,

I will provide again the list for below to City Directory all Railroad locations of premises until the Union Station began operating.

Until that time, the Kansas Pacific serviced railroads from the north and east, approximately. And railroads from the west and south approached through Wynkoop St from the south west.
 The important thing to recognise is where all this linked together was not at the KP station but on Wynkoop St. Pretty well at the corner Wynkoop & 19th but maybe I would be arguing that!
 Maybe the City Circle also operated along there. I have not researched that.

 Please take the time to examine each yearly directory to gain a good comprehension of the evolvement of events, for each railroad.
But I would like to point out that the D&RG always had ticket offices elsewhere to the station. They would not have needed anything extraordinary to sell tickets at their station.

 
Note the original D&RG ticket window through the door.
I have mentioned before that I believe the new ticket window came from the BV depot but I have not explained it further as yet.

 I do thank you for following the thread.
Ps. I know some links below may not be relevant. I have not made the time to tidy things up.

                            Reference URL                                
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll39/id/8

1880 annual directory
    page   http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/8670 

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/8670

1881 directory page 25
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/9690
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/9102

1879 page 25 passenger and freight depot together
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/8369

1878 passenger and freight together
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/8089

1877 ticket office, freight and passenger depot south west corner
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/7821

1876
freight and passenger depot south west corner
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/7540

1875 freight and passenger depot south west corner
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/7540

1874  freight and passenger south west corner
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/6989

1873 freight and passenger SOUTH EAST CORNER
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/6701

1872  

file.php   Map

1873 photo

1882 directory
Page 31

1882 railroad directory page

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/9721

[Chris Walker]

Thanks Jimmy,

I appreciate that.

Rollandet September 1881 Map of Denver shows that arrangement, but doesn't assign Pass or Frt usage to the D&RG, just the U.P.'s.
right portion


left portion




EDIT:  While I was constructing this Post, Mr Droste slipped in another curve ball.
Reminding me I had done this sometime ago, to keep track of where the various links refered to, without having to bother navigating each and every time.  

Note: Was the first entry an error, i.e. "Southeast" ?

[Jimmy Blouch]

Posted in error

Jimmy

[John Droste]

 Hi Jimmy,
I might just respond further.
I provided a list of depot locations a second time for I had overlooked your pointing out that the D&RG were operating back the other side of Cherry Creek again. My apologies for not acknowledging that.

 This issue is less so of the Train Orders Board as you mentioned but the so called Telegraph Wires Board.

The three pieces of wood that I say came from a Gilman Hotel window, to connect the DSP&P Hotel Extension (First Stage), that are exactly in line with the TOB's cog bracket, that is equally in line with two holes at the same size and hight along the west wall of the depot.
 I am saying that there is a hole behind these three pieces of wood which will indicate then that the Como depot came from somewhere else.
After the many thousands of hours of interest spent, the matter could be annulled by carefully praying off just one piece of wood to show what lies beneath.
 This is what I mean by 'Duty before Honor' over 'Honor before Duty'.
 Narcissism drives the refute.

 Your thought Jimmy seems to be correct. The structure in the photo I refer to as the D&RG passenger station does not appear to be in use at that time. Not exactly your words but I get what you mean.

 Just as a matter of interest I will write a few sentences of possible interest from the Kenton Forrest book, Denver's Railroads.
Keep in mind my interest is in the Fat Controllers, as per Thomas The Tank, namely Jay Gould;

"In1874 the CC established its depot in Denver, 16th & Delgany streets."

"In 1879, the UP leased the CC."

"D&RG held first spike ceremony near todays 20th & Wynkoop on July 28 1871."

"In 1881 the D&RG had laid a third rail to accomodate Santa Fe trains into Denver."

"Jay Gould acquired the DSP&P in late 1880," (With intentions no doubt) "Resold it in January to the UP."

"The Union opened for business on June 1, 1881-Tracks were not completed."

"Beforehand, the D&RG passenger department moved in on the 19th May. Excursion trains began running on the 20th May, (even though the building was still under construction."

"On 24th May the 4th track was laid."

"On 26th May workmen cut down trees near the old CC depot for Right of Way."

"On June 6th the old depot 16th and Wewatta was torn down." (Any speculation that they may have reused this 16 year old building?)

"The tower was finished on July 13."

 Okay, now let's move forward and address a "Phenomena."
I have drawn a red line that intersects two roof tops which is in line with the corner of KP station.

 They appear to be beyond the D&RG station which would be positioned at the time the photo was taken, South West of 19th and Wynkoop Streets.


 In this greater photo, (Please follow link), the freight building invasion once again. But there are no two other buildings that might line up to appear in line from the corner of the KP that align.
 But anyway, we know that the D&RG station and freight depot were behind the telegraph line along 19th street.



 And we are established that the Ben Delaney building was on the corner of 19th and facing Wynkoop St. (Longer than it was wide.)

This is what throws me. Chris has pointed out that the D&RG Freight building and station are here North East of the Ben Delaney building.
 

 I am not dismissing it Chris. You have shown a map that positioned 'depots' in this area. 1883 according to the city directory.

maybe these depot and station were just moved along to the South West corner afterwards? It is nothing more or less than I have suggested, that is sliding the D&RG station or part of, in-between the Ben Delaney building and the building next door, both of which I say were moved to Como.
 I say, it would be easier to do this than sending the carpenters team to build new buildings with a pack of wood and their hammer, hand saw, chisel, and plane.

 But Chris,
 I am interested. Do you know the date this last photo was taken? Or have any other detail? 1883 would be the key.
 

[Jeff Ramsey]

[South Park]

In Round One of this discussion I posted a photo of the balloon
used to carry the old D&RG depot over the mountains to Como.
I think that is proof enough, eh ?  

[John Droste]

Hi Jeff,
Thanks for showing your face.
And thanks for your offer of assistance before MHF stepped in, "Interesting subject. I think the D&RGRy had 4 different Denver stations before the completion of Denver Union Depot in 1881. I need to review some research material which I have in storage, perhaps I can post next week in detail. A big game changer was the washout and destruction of the bridge over Cherry Creek in 1878. Bo a Google search on D&RG annual reports 1871-1883 there are some building reports and valuation."

 Are the same buildings in two different locations diagonally across the road from each other?
The photo which seems to be of the South East quarter does seem to have railroad cars each side although it is not clear. Nothing behind though?!
 It appears to have a larger "canopy" which returns around the end of the building unlike the view of the South West quarter, as it seems.


 I should stress that this is Chris's interpretation of the names to the buildings.