Mystery DL&G outfit car

[Dave Eggleston]

This Bass photo in the UC Boulder JB Sturtevant collection is a bit of a mystery I’m hoping someone can shed some light on.

https://cudl.colorado.edu/luna/servlet/detail/CUB~26~26~67~294175?sort=mediafileName%2Ctitle%2Cdate_created%2Cname_part&qvq=sort:mediafileName%2Ctitle%2Cdate_created%2Cname_part;lc:CUB~26~26&mi=66&trs=1115


What caught my eye was what's being hauled: A grounded outfit car. But what is it and from where?


A newspaper search was fruitful: I can date the photo to Dec 26, 1895, from articles in the Boulder Daily Camera on Dec 24 and 26, 1895:




Tovey is pulling “relics” from Four Mile Canyon 18 months after the flood had destroyed the GSL&P. But from which of the two locations? I’ve come across about 100 photos of the line, a handful of which show grounded boxcars at Sunset and Salina.

The one at Salina (Gold Hill) was presumably used as the depot, given the importance of the place, and is best seen in a photo taken just after the 1894 flood. It may suggest a flatcar with body added, with a sliding window in one end, a side window and a modified side door and possibly vertical battens on the end.


Salina boxcar
Not a match with 03005 but the real clincher is this car is in a handful of photos taken after 1898: It isn’t Tovey’s car.

Sunset accumulated four grounded boxcars after the depot burned down on July 4, 1893. They were UP 24268, UP 24152, CC 026552 and an unidentified car that may have been a 24’ 1880 CCRR car. None of these resemble 03005 and later photos show all survived into the C&NW era. None of them is Tovey’s car.

So I have no idea where Tovey pulled the car from.

On to the next mystery: What is this car? The lettering is painted over blocked-out lettering with a tiny “DL&G” under the side number. The new lettering was most likely applied circa 1890-92 by the DL&G likely arrived on the GSL&P around 1892-93.




A few general thoughts on freight cars used on the GSL&P. First, there weren’t many freight cars and none were lettered for the home line and they included some outfit-style cars (not the cabooses 01542 and 026552 but at least one other converted boxcar). Second, photos and ORER records suggest cars weren’t relettered or renumbered once they arrived on the GSL&P, even when those things happened elsewhere on the UP system. Third, it seems the freight cars weren’t rotated off the line after they arrived, unlike engines and passenger cars. Once there, freight cars stayed. Fourth, cars came initially from the CC but over the years additions came from across the UP system: the DSP&P, the DL&G, the UPD&G, the U&N and the KC.

So, back to the mystery. The number, 03005, is outside the range assigned in 1885 by the UP for outfit or work cars: 02500–02999. Since things change and rosters expand, I checked ORER records from 1890 to 1895 for the UP System as well as the 1889 UP Roster of locos, plows, and equipment and found all listed cars within the expected range. What the heck? Presumably there were cars outside the official numbering range that didn’t get seen or were ignored by the Boston clerks? I don’t have anything to confirm this. Why this number? I don’t know. The closest candidate freight car number was DSP&P 3005, a flatcar. Was this converted to outfit service with a body attached and a "0" appended to its number?

Finally, a look at physical details shows a body heavily modified but with parts of a wood side ladder and some trim. I don’t know if the ladder is important or not in narrowing this down and welcome thoughts on that. The flat-bottomed end fascia, if original, would possibly indicate a South Park 1878 Barney & Smith boxcar or inherited KC and U&N Ohio Falls boxcar. The car appears to be 79 veritcal boards long, width which, if considered 3.5” boards, it’s a hair over 23’, if 4” boards it’s about 26’. According to the 1889 UP Locomotives, Plows and Flangers list, the KC boxcars at that time were 22’, 24’ and 27’. The U&N boxcars were 24’.

So, that’s as far as I can go at the moment. Clearly an outfit boxcar or shed oddly numbered 03005 on the ground somewhere in Four Mile Canyon, placed likely after arriving (on its own trucks?) around 1892/93. It came from the DL&G but may originally have been from the KC or U&N. One detail suggests a B&S or Ohio Falls car. Or something else entirely? Some line's caboose or rudimentary passenger car? What am I missing? I welcome any thoughts.

[Chris Walker]

Dave,

possibly a s.g. car from the UP rebuilt into n.g. outfit, see the Ladder(remains), looks way too many rungs for the narragauge! See Buckwalter's picture at Pine for what I mean DPL CHS-B247.

EDIT: U.P. Boxcar with same ladder.
DPL CHS.J41


I don't know either way though!

[Todd Hackett]

Dave Eggleston wrote

...likely arrived on the GSL&P around 1892-93...

That's quite a mystery. I can't make any sense of that number either, and I looked though my collection and have no photos showing a car that could be that one, but most of my photos would be later.

Technically, the GSL&P ceased to exist on April 1 1990 when it was absorbed into the new UPD&G (along with the Colorado Central and several others), so the line would have been the UPD&G by the time this car likely arrived (whether it was an outfit car or something else at the time, and whether they used it or just put it on the ground somewhere).

The car looks wide - could it be standard gauge? The number still doesn't make sense, nor does the DL&G make sense for a standard gauge car.

There appears to be a platform on the end, so it's likely that the body had been longer (maybe much longer) at one point. There's no sign of a side cargo door, so if this was a boxcar conversion, they did more than just add some windows. I don't see any sign of needle beams, which would have made it easier to estimate how much of the original car was left.

[Dave Eggleston]

Chris Walker wrote

Dave,

possibly a s.g. car from the UP rebuilt into n.g. outfit, see the Ladder(remains), looks way too many rungs for the narragauge! See Buckwalter's picture at Pine for what I mean DPL CHS-B247.

I don't know either way though!

Thanks Chris!

It feels wider than a narrow gauge car. But I can't get a clean count of boards to check the width. The number, and the DL&G lettering add wrinkles that I can't untangle.

[Dave Eggleston]

Todd Hackett wrote

There appears to be a platform on the end, so it's likely that the body had been longer (maybe much longer) at one point. There's no sign of a side cargo door, so if this was a boxcar conversion, they did more than just add some windows. I don't see any sign of needle beams, which would have made it easier to estimate how much of the original car was left.

The platform is a good catch.

As I was digging into this I wondered if this was a standard gauge caboose, work car or even cobbled passenger car of some type. But why wouldn't that number show up in a roster? Well, I think there's a good chance that some of the home builds didn't in fact show up in any rosters--two examples I can think of are the two GSL&P cabooses, 01542 and 026552.

A standard gauge car on trucks was easier to get to Boulder than a narrow gauge car. The next trick would be transferring and moving it up Boulder Canyon to Four Mile Canyon. It seems odd that they'd do that when a narrow gauge boxcar would suffice for a shed. 19th century thinking that I'm not able to wrap my head around yet.

[Jeff Ramsey]

Kinda looks like the car body at Climax. See Mineral Belt 2 , pg222.

[Jim Courtney]

Sometimes puzzles require bizarre solutions.

Is that really a platform on the right end of DL&G 03005?




Or is the man with crossed legs standing on an end sill, attached to a side sill that protrudes outward from the side sheathing? There seems to be a lower brake staff bracket dangling below the "porch" and perhaps a metal strap, with bolts, wrapped around the end sill.

So could this actually be a D&RG Billmeyer and Small 24-foot boxcar, rebuilt into an outfit car? Consider:




D&RG 3005 would fit into cars of this series. And note the vertical hand grabs on the ends at the corner. They look a lot like the vertical grabs on the other end of 03005, at the corner and on either side of the door.

Is it possible that a D&RG 24' boxcar or outfit car got stranded on the CC in the 1880s and was "adopted" by that road? If so, why is it lettered with DL&G subscript, instead of UPD&G?

Perhaps Jimmy Blounch or others knowledgeable with the early D&RG should look for outfit car numbers in the 03000 series. Ron Rudnick has noted that several Kansas Central boxcars ended up in Colorado, "off the books", some later re-lettered for the UPD&G or DL&G, but keeping their original numbers.

FWIW, here is the outfit car at Climax that Jeff referenced:

 


The car details of Mr. Tovey's 03005, especially the end fascia board, doesn't match obvious candidates from the CC/South Park boxcars. It doesn't have the arched lower edge of UP-built cars, like the CC 24' cars or the South Park 27' cars. It looks too short to be a Peninsular 30' car. And the Litchfield 26' boxcars/outfit cars had angled lower fascia edges:




All speculation aside, Dave, I haven't a clue as to the origin of this car.  On final thought--are we sure that Mr. Tovey didn't haul the outfit body to Kokomo, and park it behind the Masonic Lodge, as Jeff noted??

[Chris Walker]

Jim,
I like your suggestion of a D&RG 3xxx but notice the number of runningboard supports, more so on the Mule-powered version.

Also low #30xx show no end platform/ledge.
DPL CHS.X4693

[Jeff Ramsey]

[Jim Courtney]

This is turning into a great thread. Who cares what's true!

That is a great photo, Chris, where do you find these things? Any date available?

I will take issue with you that the lower numbered D&RG box cars in the 3xxx series were "porchless".

Per Sloan's spiral bound compendium of D&RG freight cars (A Century + Ten . . . ), D&RG boxcars numbered 2351-3060 were built in 1880 as part of equipment trust "B". All were built with Billmeyer and Small components and were identical to all the other 24 foot boxcars in the 2167-4899 series. In 1902, some of these cars had their porches removed for purposes of adaptation to automatic couplers. Since your 3023 still has link-pin couplers, this isn't one of those. Look closely:




Boxcar 3023 is a smidge taller than the other boxcars, side fascia board is wider, the side door is open and opens to the left. The end has a fascia board with straight lower edge. Instead of of the original cast end steps, there are now two angled grab irons. There are corner irons in the middle and bottom of the corners. And the clincher is that the end sheathing is a few inches closer to the rail than the side sheathing.

I believe that your 3023 is one of the B&S 24 footers that was rebuilt to new 27 foot boxcars, probably the second group in the fall of 1888. These rebuilds were done willy-nilly from BO 24' cars needing repair. As the original Trust bonds had not been paid off, they kept their original numbers. Here is another of the 27-foot rebuilds at Fremont Pass in 1884:




Note the new fascia board and the angled grab iron on the end.

I am not stating as fact that Dave's mystery outfit body is one of the D&RG 24 footers, just trying to think outside the box(car) . My point is, Mr. Tovey's UP 03005 has more features in common with the D&RG 24 footers than with any class of CC/DSP&P boxcar with which I'm familiar.

How did it end up as a DL&G outfit car in Boulder Canon? Perhaps one of the D&RG cars (3005) was involved in a wreck while in possession of the DSP&P, or a careless South Park crew side swiped it in Leadville or at the crossing at Robinson or perhaps at the connection in Dillon. The UP reimburses the D&RG for their loss, then decides to rebuild / repair the car as an outfit car, if it wasn't one already. The car body does show definite signs of shopping by the UP though. Not only are the number of roof walk supports different, they are wider than those on the D&RG's one-board running boards, probably 21" for the standard two board South Park style.

As I said, I don't recognize 03005 as of CC or DSP&P heritage. I guess if D&RG depots can move to Como, D&RG boxcars can end up in Boulder Canon--at least they have wheels . . .

[Todd Hackett]

The "porch" on the DL&G 3005 looks to me to be too long to be an extended end sill. The guy with his legs crossed looks to be standing about a foot and a half from the end of the car.
Another observation: The car sides look too high for a narrow gauge boxcar. Every narrow gauge boxcar I've been inside is too short for me to stand up straight. There are several guys on and around this car, and it looks like the interior height would be a couple of feet more than any of them. Compare the relative heights of people and car side to Jim's photo of DSP&P 0692.

[Chris Walker]

Jim,

didn't ya know I have memorised every image in the DPL  

The 3023 has a CircleM, same as this one at Burnham: that interested me, once upon a time.  
I don't have Sloan's D&RG freight cars A Century + Ten . . . nor the Taking Stock book either.  I was over-extended on my UStrip that was on offer, $-wise; a deep regret nowadays.

DPL X-18865

[Jeff Ramsey]

See pg. 200, bottom of C&S Platte Canon Memories & Then Some.

[Jeff Ramsey]

The middle window has turned into a door.

[Jim Courtney]

Hey Todd,

I agree, Mr. Tovey's outfit car can't be a D&RG B&S 24-footer. The "porch" is a red herring.

From D&RG standard plans the B&S cars had a body length of 24', total length of 26' over the end sills. That leaves a 1 foot deep exposed end sill. Dave's photo shows a porch of probably 2 feet of depth. I do think that the exposed "porch" is integral to the cars underframe, that is both longitudinal and end sills are exposed. Why else would there be an lower brake staff bracket hanging off the bottom of the end of the "porch". I can see the car body being set on the ground somewhere in Boulder Canon, then a 2 foot or so section of the car body framing and sheathing removed, new end constructed, but the sills retained as the framing for a 2-foot deep platform at that end.

I agree, the proportions of the car suggest that it is standard gauge in origin. On another thread (http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/Non-Revenue-Service-Cars-td14179.html) we discussed C&S outfit car 052:




Both 052 and sister 051 first show up on the C&S rosters in 1909. The consensus was that the two cars were originally standard gauge cars, perhaps originally small UPD&G standard gauge cars like this:




The problem with Dave's outfit car is that it is lettered for the DL&G. The DL&G never owned any standard gauge cars. If Dave's 03005 were lettered with a UPD&G subscript, it would all make sense.

But wait, there's more!!

In the same thread, Ken Martin posted an 1899 renumber sheet of early C&S outfit cars:




The list proves that outfit cars 051-054 were originally standard gauge outfit cars, converted to narrow gauge use later in the first decade. But further down, we find C&S outfit cars that were always narrow gauge, including C&S outfits 058-061. Their original, pre-C&S numbers were 03003, 03016, 03017 and 03165!

So. if Dave's 03005 was a sister of these outfit cars, what were their pre-conversion car numbers and car types? This gets a bit complicated. In the addendum of NG Pictorial VIII, Derrell Poole lists C&S outfit car 060 as originally numbered DL&G box car 24658, based on a May, 1900 photo, though I can't follow his explanation. (Page 213, table of Non-Revenue Service Cars.)

If true, then DL&G outfit 03017 was originally DL&G boxcar 24658. And Ron Rudnick, in his UPD&G/DL&G guide, lists DL&G boxcar 24658 as one of series 24600-25489, a Kansas Central, 27 foot, UP built boxcar. If a few feet were cut off one end for a "porch/platform" the resulting 24-25 foot body would fit into Dave's calculated length by board count.

Further down on Ken's renumber list are C&S outfits 062-064. Their pre-C&S numbers were just box car numbers with a 0 prefix. DL&G boxcars 24083-24275 were Litchfield 26 foot cars.

Based on this, admittedly limited and convoluted evidence, it would appear that DL&G 03005 was always a narrow gauge car. We can't say what the original car number, length or builder was.  If one end had been amputated a bit, it would have changed the proportions, perhaps suggesting a standard gauge car of origin.

I hate puzzles with pieces missing like this!  

[Dave Eggleston]

I've been camping and came back to find some great discussion and theorizing! I know it isn’t critical but in the interest of accuracy at mile 3 the GSL&P left Boulder Canyon, turning into Four Mile Canyon which it followed to Sunset; all stations were on this stretch of the line. I lean to 03005 being in Four Mile Canyon.

Jim, resurfacing that 1899 list puts the number 03005 now entirely within reason, in a range held by narrow gauge cars. I can still find no other source showing cars in this range of numbers and wonder when it was applied and why it was not reported. Of course it not being on that list makes absolute sense, too. It was a shed in Tovey's back yard. I still think the number was given no later than 1892 and quite possibly years earlier.

Source of the car, for me, has focused on cars from Barney & Smith, Ohio Falls or the standard gauge. But the discussion on the Billmeyer D&RG car possibility led me to another possibility: What if 03005 is an 1880 AT&SF-ordered St Charles car that had somehow found itself in the South Park's hands?

In a nutshell, the AT&SF ordered 100 St Charles narrow gauge boxcars in December 1879. The Royal Gorge war left these unused after their delivery in mid-1879 just as the South Park found itself over-run with Leadville traffic and blockaded. The South Park leased the AT&SF engines and equipment in August. These cars ran extensively on the line during the period the line was extending from Garos to Buena Vista from September 1879 to March 1880 when they were returned to the AT&SF.

There is one photo of the boxcars on the Arkansas River bridge but for this conversation the best photo was taken later on the D&RG, found in the C&TS Dorman collection, also once shared in a thread here by Jim.



A flat-bottomed end fascia. A bigger car. That end door that could be extended. Humans on top at the end for comparison.

The AT&SF lost the Royal Gorge War and by March 1880 was collecting cars back in Canon City. In October 1880 the AT&SF sent most but not all of these cars back east.  Could there be something in the cars that didn't return east? From the AT&SF Annual Reports of 1879, 1880 and 1881 we know:

- 50 of the St Charles cars had been ordered by the AT&SF for the D&RG; an unspecified number were sent to that line in October 1880 (Colorado Daily 10/8/1880). We know they became numbers 2300-2349, suggesting all 50 made it to the D&RG.
- 20 boxcars and 25 flatcars were purchased by an undisclosed buyer. Ron Rudnick builds the case this buyer was not the South Park based on the lack of a numbering “hole” for these cars to fit in. I tend to agree, plus other cars were coming online. But one crazy thought: What if this purchase was the South Park "buying" cars it had destroyed during the 6 months of operation--and there were NO cars to put on the roster as a result?
- 6 freight cars are unaccounted for.

The idea of 03005 being one of these unidentified/unaccounted boxcars or that one of the D&RG cars somehow got into South Park hands after the fact isn't completely out of the realm of possibility.

What if one of the St Charles cars got stranded and left behind in 1880? What if one was wrecked in 1879/1880 but later retrucked and put in service before conversion to an outfit car?

Just thinking here, adding St Charles to the possible list for what its worth.

[Todd Hackett]

Jim - Ken's table is interesting. It seems to show that 03005 would be in the sequence for a narrow gauge outfit car. Since this table shows renumbering in 1899, a car that was out of service by 1895 wouldn't be included. It also shows C&S 051 to be ex UP 02641, a standard gauge car, but there's a photo of 051 identified as being at Leavick ca 1917 on page 153 of the Narrow Gauge Pictorial vol VIII, and in addition to being on the narrow gauge, it's proportions look like a narrow gauge car.