Freight trains at Dillon (or Keystone)?

[Jim Courtney]

I'd like to see any photos of C&S stock trains anywhere on the narrow gauge lines.  

I understand why photos of stock trains (or any freight trains, for that matter) are rare west of Breckenridge, but I can't think of any photos of any stock trains anywhere.

[Mike Trent]

I can't either, Jim.

I assume that stock was carried into the upper elevations as soon as weather permitted higher altitude grazing, then carried stock out in early fall.

As I understand requirements involving livestock, the cars would have had to been unloaded into pens along the way, which, I assume would have been done in Como both in both directions. There were hour restrictions on livestock unloading. The only possible way to have avoided unloading along the way on trips over 8-10 hrs would have been to run them as "extra". Interesting.

Maybe Rick will chime in. I'm sure he knows about the requirements for stock movements.

[Chris Walker]

I think Mike covered it well, maybe there also were only small shipments along the line say one or two carloads, maybe those "trains" you've mentioned made the news because they were a rarity in their own right?

I'm leaning towards giving some priority to your Stock shipments.


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42459/rv/singleitem/rec/13


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42469/rv/singleitem/rec/18


Note the number of this Stockcar in train
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42530/rv/singleitem/rec/76

[Robert McFarland]

I don't think Slim took any photos.What about W.A.Gibson and R.B. Jackson?

[Mike Trent]

Holy Cow!

I think you nailed it, Chris. Putting them in the passenger train would get them to Dillon so the stock can be unloaded as soon the engine spotted them at the pens right at the depot. Conversely, the stock would be loaded at train time outbound from Dillon. Scheduled arrivals and departures and no issue having to unload stock at Como after bumping along in the freight trains.

If the cars needed to be picked up empty or spotted empty for loading, those tasks would be done by one of the helpers on Monday or Wednesday. You can bet no stock cars would be empty in a passenger consist.

Another bean on the string, and another thing learned. I'd never have imagined this, but now it makes perfect sense.

Thanks, Chris!!    

[Robert McFarland]

Did anybody notice the C&S 10-11-12 RPO car?

[Tim Schreiner]

I sure am learning a great deal here as well. Thanks for posting the pictures Chris!

[Chris Walker]

The only true C&S Stock train consist that I can remember seeing in photographic form, other than the clean-up train around Alma and/or Grant was featured by Harry Brunk in the N/D 1986 NG&SL Gazette of a WA Gibson's pictures and that was at Georgetown no less.




Have you ever seen a Mainline with a Stockchute on it?

WA Gibson Sr. pictures pg71, 72
Harry Brunk Nov/Dec 1986 Narrow Gauge&Short Line Gazette

[Jim Courtney]

There you go, Chris.  I'd forgotten those pictures.

I still have a problem with stock being moved 1-3 cars at a time, using the daily passenger train.  For one thing, loading stock requires a bit of time, spotting each car.  That would throw the passenger way off schedule.

I can't explain the pics of the passenger trains with stock cars, another of the unknown unknowns.  Perhaps they were a special stock movement, added to the passenger train at Como, to expedite delivery to Denver.

[Jim Courtney]

That's the great thing about this site.  Always something new to learn (or unlearn as the case may be).

[Chris Walker]

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42530/rv/singleitem/rec/76
Having some time to look at this again, that Stockcar 7064 appears to be loaded with something stacked over the trucks at each end, mine props/ties?  

It certainly does not look anything like Cattle or Sheep.  The two Passenger with Stockcars attached also give no clue to loaded or not.   Sheep are usually crammed in so wool shows through the slats.

As for running the Passenger with attached Stockcar(s), another 2-Stockcar +Passenger is shown at Como in Klinger's, Platte Canon Memories pg222 by the way, the pictures prove it did happen,  we don't know where added or why and the details are lost to history.

Assuming cars are spotted at the Chutes in advance of loading, again photographic evidence in Jim's earlier pictures of Dillon from the Mineral Belt V-2 show cars stored at this location, all the Crew have to do is back in, drop the Pass. out and back into the stockyard and couple on, out and back onto the passenger cars, intermediate Brake Test and away.  If multiple cars were to be loaded then a pinchbar will move a car out of the way for the next to be loaded, the schedule of the Passenger is known, whether it be late or on time, to facilitate loading without delay.  Run 'em up the ramp now 'boys; the Pass. is through Frisco!

Perhaps it was added at Como, some other Loco and crew may have lifted it at Alma or Garos and brought it into Como and added to the Eastbound Pass.  Just how much the C&S management was concerned with running "on time" I have no idea.  They were trying to abandon the line for so long I guess one way to discourage ridership is to put stinkys on the head.

Interesting!

[Keith Hayes]

And the stock would make for an aromatic ride in the coach!

[Mike Trent]

Jim the passenger locomotive would just drop off or pick up live loads. Took a couple of minutes but thats all.

Moving the cars was done with pinch bars, the shipper or consignee was responsible for loading and unloading. So they could take as long as it took. Stock wasn't moving up and down at the same time so the empties were picked up by helpers on Mondays and Wednesdays. Very clever.

[Mike Trent]

Yes Robert. I did notice that. My guess is that was taken before 1931 when #70/#71 ran daily. I haven't had time to search the DPL for details of location and date.

[Chris Walker]

Jim Courtney wrote

I can't explain the pics of the passenger trains with stock cars, another of the unknown unknowns.  Perhaps they were a special stock movement, added to the passenger train at Como, to expedite delivery to Denver.

call it Tradition or Historical Precedent perhaps ....


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/76332/rv/singleitem/rec/1

[Chris Walker]

Three on the Head for Denver !



I was also trying very hard to remember where I obtained this picture...
http://loc.gov/pictures/resource/cph.3c18085/ you can get the full-sized tiff file off here if you really want the "supersize"

[Robert McFarland]

In this highly sanitized world we live in today people forget that in the 50's and before PEOPLE LIVED WITH THE SMELL.They were used to it,or at least put up with it.If you look at the left end of the side sill of the "stock car"(really a converted flat car with stock racks) in the Nathrop photo, you can see it's been doing its duty.Notice the horse.Also all the open windows on the passenger car.Women back then were pretty tough-read about "Countess "Pearlina" Zabriskie.Theres a chance that the DSP&P stock cars in the Platte Canyon photos did double duty as flat cars as there seem be flat cars on the DSP&P roster carrying the same number as the stock cars.Rudnick's book mentions this.

[Mike Trent]

Good point, Robert.

Jim, the more I think about this, the more it makes sense, and I don't think this sort of thing was all that unusual in early and late summer in the high country. These cars were not added anywhere along the line, I believe the cars were added to the consist in the C&S Yard in Denver. The livestock was loaded in the couple of hours before departure from Union Station, and two stock cars was probably the limit for a single engine. Maybe Chris can find a picture of a doubleheader with five or six cars on Train #70, but that would surprise all of us! One or two cars was certainly possible as needed. The point was to be able to get livestock from Denver to Dillon within the deadline for having to off load the stock for feeding and air. The only alternative to do this would have been to run an extra to cover the distance in the allotted time, which would have carried more stock, but would have been expensive and would have had to run on what would have been essentially the Passenger train schedule.

While it may not have been desirable for the Passenger crew to add stock cars to the consist, it was good for the railroad, their customers, and everyone's livelihood.

Besides, as Chris has pointed out, this trend goes all the way back to the old DSP&P, at least on occasion. Another great catch, Chris!

[Chris Walker]

Mike,

A minor point here has tripped you up, as it has done me in the past: see http://c-sn3-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Love-me-tender-With-apologies-to-Elvis-tp499p566.html
Note the nearside position of the third-rail, those Stockcar on Passenger photos are taken with the train headed towards Denver, the outer sg rail is on the Westernside of the track there, if it were Como bound in the morning then assuming the photographer was shooting with the sun at his back then the third-rail would be on the farside of the track.  In my mistaken "maybe Como bound #70"  the third-rail is in the same position which led me to guess at it being headed towards Como with highsun, Wrong on my part.
 
So there must have been a third-rail Draw between Union Station and somewhere before the line to Golden left Denver as the outside sg rail is opposite at Golden.  Photo of the Last Train to Leadville show the sg rail under the Driver's side of the Cab, pictures at Golden show the same orientation but the destinations of those two are "poles apart".

.....back to more Stock trains on the C&S


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/43131/rv/singleitem/rec/6


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42512/rv/singleitem/rec/15

[Mike Trent]

Actually, Chris, not at all. It also makes perfect sense that these stock cars would be added Eastbound from Dillon. The Eastbound train left Dillon at 10:50AM, meaning empties spotted at Dillon would be loaded before then. So the train would have arrived in Denver within the time limit, just as it would have been Westbound. It doesn't really matter at all which direction the trains are headed, the opposite direction would have been just as likely. If the trains in the photos are in January, they could have been for the Annual Stock Show.

The usual routine was that stock was transported into the High Country in early Summer, taken down in late Summer before the snow flew.

So I'm more than OK with the stock trains moving in both directions.

But in all fairness, I hadn't considered the third rail. Thanks for pointing that out.