DSP&P Passenger Car Research

[Tundracamper]

This thread just keeps getting better and better:)

[Dave Eggleston]

Chris,

Am I reading something wrong? Looking at the Pictorial (original edition), Colorado Central Railroad, NG Pictorial Vol VIII and Hol Wagner's Colorado Road and the MidContent site, all show a build date for the UP cars as1883.

The list of cars on the 1884 UP annual report includes 6 excursion cars for the CCRR. 820-825 are included in the June 1885 numbering. These also suggest to me a build date of 1883 to mid-1884.

[Chris Walker]

Dave Eggleston wrote

Chris,

Am I reading something wrong? Looking at the Pictorial (original edition), Colorado Central Railroad, NG Pictorial Vol VIII and Hol Wagner's Colorado Road and the MidContent site, all show a build date for the UP cars as1883.

Sorry, I got that wrong; dunno where that came from this morning, Dave.  
But I had it correct at 1883 in my earlier post http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/DSP-P-Passenger-Car-Research-tp20585p20598.html

Still trying to find an answer and respond to your Timeline post query....

[Dave Eggleston]

Tundracamper wrote

 I would not have thought about “excursion” vs “observation.”  

Welcome to the murky dreamland of South Park/Colorado Central equipment! The terms seem interchangeable and this is worsened by the general public calling railroad cars many things the railroads themselves didn't. And this was carried forth by historian authors which then enshrined terms in the broader South Park mythology that persists for many reasons. It's not a one-versus-the-other but a mixed soup of terms created from a mix of documents and gaps in documentation, left percolating over 140 years.

Out of curiosity I did a quick dive. Sorry if this runs long but I wanted to find specific company references, hoping for clarity. Ha!

It seems, at least officially, "Excursion" or "Excursion, coach" were used by the UP (1884-1889), the UP-controlled UPD&G (1890-1893) and the Trumbull-controlled UPD&G (1894-1898).  (Sources: 1884-1893 UP Annual Reports, 1885 UP Renumbering, 1887 Report to the Pacific Railway Commission, 1889 UP Roster of Engines, Plows and the 1890-1898 ORER listings).

These listed cars are the six official purpose-built 1883 Colorado Central excursion cars, not converted flats. All lasted into the C&S era. I can't yet find evidence of a DSP&P/DL&G purpose-built excursion car. For several reasons, all likely financial, the South Park borrowed CCRR cars or resorted to putting homebuilt removable superstructures and benches on flats, removing them when not needed. Economical and useful in keeping cars running all year. Modeler's aside: a South Park flatcar so converted would be a nice model.

Between 1884 and 1889 a lot of South Park cars and engines were moved by the UP to more profitable and busy lines such as the U&N. Then the flow reversed around 1889 until 1893 bringing back South Park cars to the DL&G as well adding in others from recently-standard-gauged UP subsidiaries (U&N, KC, OSL). This left the South Park with a lot of cars it didn't need. It doesn't seem any excursion cars were part of this equipment shift. Modeler's aside: It would be cool to have a KC- or U&N-lettered flat with a convertible excursion roof and benches. Might've actually happened.

For completeness, I turned to the Original Railroad Equipment Registers, a monthly "book" listing equipment on every railroad in interchange business. The DL&G is only listed from 1891 to 1894 and includes no excursion cars. But from June 1890 to May 1898 the ORER lists the UPD&G excursion cars (the six 1883 cars) as "Excursion." Another plug for the term.

All good, right? Wait for it...the C&S formation muddies the water. In early 1899 (at least Feb if not Jan) the brand new C&S has these six 1883 cars listed in the ORER as "Observation," and that term holds in each ORER issue to at least 1917. Meanwhile, the 1900-1908 C&S Annual Reports call out the cars as "Excursion Coaches" then around 1910 they are lumped into the passenger category "Other Cars." Why the ORER changed the terms is a mystery to me.

Final data point on this period: Derrell Poole in the NG Pictorial Vol VII lists the cars as "Excursion Coaches." I don't know his source for choosing that term but have no doubt it is based on C&S documentation.

I have not found an official C&S document listing them as "observation" but my focus is pre-C&S and I have few documents to dig further on that.

In the end, I lean to "excursion" as more official, at least before 1911. The company documentation I have access to leans completely in that direction. But sadly things have been mixed up and we have to wade through the variations. I do hope someone proves I'm wrong!

[Darel Leedy]

At the risk of starting another dumpster fire, I have deleted the old South Park Timeline thread and created a new pinned topic "DSP&P/CC/UPD&G/DL&G/C&S "Timeline"
Its obvious by the many deleted posts that the old thread was a contentious subject ten years ago.
I have copied what Jeff Young had started. Please move this conversation to the new thread and feel free to make suggestions on how best this should be set up. I strongly suggest citing sources as by the example in this first post. Per Chris's recommendation, maybe this is just a list of dates only. But I am open to whatever information can be shared and how. Please no more discussion about this matter in this particular thread (DSP&P Passenger Car Research). Thank you.

[drgwcs]

Pick your seat
In a previous discussion on the excursion cars that was linked earlier there was a bit of a discussion on plans and seats- since that point I had gotten Abbott's Colorado Central Book. I am still looking through there (had to set it aside for a while as the ink irritated my allergies)  but there are several good photos of the excursion cars as well as a good interior photos. Besides the early ones that were built on flats there were three series of these. Here is a copy of Maxwell's plans





120-131 are 40 over end sills and 47'6" over the buffers These are noted as having slat seats and that shows in a photo from Mt McClelland of 131 These have thinner side posts than the other two series.



132-137 were shorter at 41' 8" over the buffers and had the narrower end pillars. They also had fancier posts on the side.

138-148 were also 40 over end sills and 47'6" over the buffers. The side walls here were beefier. These appear to have rattan seats with a ladder back wood construction. The weave seems to be something you can see through looking at the pic. (nice on a hot summer day)



But there is more-
Abbott's book has this on page 133 of a UPD&G excursion car.



These seats look quite different- tighter weave and more of a commercial seat- the coarseness and the caption both point to Rattan again. These look like different seats than before and are not see through plus they have a curve to them. Even more curious is the fact that the side pillars look on the outside of the interior sheeting. This may be an under construction photo?? The column width appears beefier that the 120-131 series and does not have the details of the 132-137 series pillars so I am assuming a 138-148 series???
I had figured to model the open rattan seats with stripwood and a ribbon that was an open weave that I had found at Hobby Lobby. This new picture makes me rethink a little- perhaps adding a texture to Grandt line/ San Juan seats in HO?
I did find some striped green and cream ribbon for the shades. The pattern is not exact as is is missing the very narrow stripe but it should work.

[Tundracamper]

drgwcs wrote

?
I did find some striped green and cream ribbon for the shades. The pattern is not exact as is is missing the very narrow stripe but it should work.

Would you mind sharing a photo and any more details?  Oh, you did mention HO, didn’t you?  I’m looking for something in G for this…



Still, I’d like to see what you think the colors look like.

[Tundracamper]

Dave Eggleston wrote

These listed cars are the six official purpose-built 1883 Colorado Central excursion cars, not converted flats. All lasted into the C&S era. I can't yet find evidence of a DSP&P/DL&G purpose-built excursion car. For several reasons, all likely financial, the South Park borrowed CCRR cars or resorted to putting homebuilt removable superstructures and benches on flats, removing them when not needed. Economical and useful in keeping cars running all year. Modeler's aside: a South Park flatcar so converted would be a nice model.

Although I wasn’t able to locate anything specifically on excursion cars, it does seem the first excursion train into Morrison in 1874 likely consisted of passenger cars (type?) borrowed from the Rio Grande. This was taken from Page 127 of Poor’s book. See the highlight added:)

[drgwcs]

Tundracamper wrote

drgwcs wrote

?
I did find some striped green and cream ribbon for the shades. The pattern is not exact as is is missing the very narrow stripe but it should work.

Would you mind sharing a photo and any more details?  Oh, you did mention HO, didn’t you?  I’m looking for something in G for this…



Still, I’d like to see what you think the colors look like.

 
What I got was similar to this-It does not have the narrow stripes though. https://www.hobbylobby.com/fabric-sewing/ribbons-trim/ribbon/natural-green-striped-woven-ribbon---5-8/p/81088592?queryId=d23e9971083ec2e897b4a7a19afe1116

I think mine was a bit thinner though- they had several widths but I think they discontinued the other widths? I am working in HOn3.

G scale has a lot of stuff that is off-much of it way off.  The one you have a pic of is one of the observation cars that Rio Grande made for the Silverton in the 60's. They were cut down standard gauge boxcars. The South Park never had anything close to those- the standard gauge boxcars that the prototype that they were cut down from didn't even come close to existing yet when the South Park was running. No steel roofs or outside bracing like that at that point. Nobody makes a C&S style excursion car in any scale for that matter.

[Chris Walker]

Keith Hayes wrote

One thing is for sure: never say never!

I checked my Abridged Edition of the Pictorial Supplement and spied a photo of an excursion car, supposedly in Pitkin, on page 288. The photo is from 1885.

Here you go Keith.....

[Chris Walker]

First mention of open cars...

[Chris Walker]

Mike Trent wrote

Tundracamper, one thing that you will learn in pursuit of information with the South Park and CC, is that almost anything is possible, and there are few absolutes.

You may find some excursion trains on the Mainline above Waterton, but that would be unusual. Conversely, the C&S actively promoted Excursions on the Clear Creek Branch. It was convenient for a round trip in a single day, they could turn locomotives at Silver Plume, and they even converted a few locomotives to burn oil during the excursion season for the comparative comfort as opposed to cinders burning holes in umbrellas, etc.. And, the excursions did not interfere with traffic on the mainline.

As I indicated yesterday, fish trains above Waterton were pretty common on weekends and even some holidays. But these trains, as far as I know, used only standard coaches.

To add substance to Mike's overview.... A Pictorial Supplement if you will.




Heading up Platte Canon
 

Dome Rock Pic-Nic Trains
DPL L.C.McLure photo


Stabled at Pine Grove.
DPL X-13018



Switching at Idaho.
DPL X-9818

Laying over in Idaho.
DPL X-67650


8 Excursion trains up Clear Creek....

[Chris Walker]

[Todd Hackett]

Here's another photo showing some details on an observation car - C&S 120. It shows some interior ceiling details, and window shades. I've had this one for a while, but just got up to scanning it.

[Jim Courtney]

I wonder if they kicked the woman out of the car because she wasn't wearing a hat . . .

[Paul R.]

Or maybe a photo because it is her birthday??

[Keith Pashina]

The above image shows an excursion car at the end of train somewhere along Clear Creek. This photo was originally from the "Mining Reporter" magazine, regarding a  Clear Creek excursion on September 28, 1907.

Most of the photos of the excursion cars I assume were for trips up to the Georgetown Loop. However, there were also various excursions beginning in Black Hawk, and then running up the Gilpin Tram. All or most of those excursionists would have ridden  the 3' gauge to Black Hawk before transferring to the 2' gauge excursion cars.

Chris Walker's prior posts mentioned some of these, but there were a lot more. I do not want to hijack this thread and throw a lot of Gilpin Tram stuff on, so I will post it separately on the thread, Along the Gilpin Tramway - A Closer Look

[Ron Rudnick]

Found at the University of Colorado Library, Boulder

Bill paid July 3. 1873 by the Colorado Central $1,350 for one Excursion Car
to the Denver & Rio Grande Railway Co., forwarded from the Denver Shops August 31, 1872  

I have never been able to find it on the Colorado Central roster
As to the possibility it was a standard gauge car, it was never on the standard gauge roster,
And for the Colorado Central their big business was running excursions into the mountains.
One other thought, July 3, 1873 is one month before the opening of the dance pavilion at Beaver Brook  

[Chris Walker]

Thanks Ron; excellent digging.



Opening of the Georgetown Dept, 14th Aug 1877.

[Dave Eggleston]

Stumbled on this 3/4/1880 Rocky Mountain News article while creating timelines:



This is a very early reference to these cars. A RMN article two days later references 8 cars from the east. It seems historians in the know consider the ultimate number of NY Elevated cars sent to the South Park to be 6. Note the term "observation" which is why I'm including this here, not because I have solid evidence that was how they were used!

For more history and details of these oddball (for the South Park) cars:

https://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/CandS/dsp-passenger/coach_11-15a.htm