D&RG /D&RGW Freight Car Information

[Pat Student]

Jim

There is a fuzzy drawing in Sloan's Century and 10 of the strait air arrangement.  Unfortunately, for us, it is drawn from the top looking dow with the underframe members obscuring details.  There appears to be a handle on the line between the tee and the brake cylinder.  I confirmed this with Stan Rhine, and logic dictates that the there be a cut-out valve to isolate a leaky cylinder.

As for placement in train, we would need to find the operating rules and instructions for the time.  Today's rule is you can not have two cars with cut-out brakes together, they must be separated by at least one car with operative brakes.  The reason is to minimize the distance between operative control valves.

Another thought, I don't think we're talking blocks of cars with the exception of Buena Vista and Leadville, but more like one, maybe two cars per train.  This though is based on the destinations of Marshal Pass hill turn data.  

Pat

[Robert McFarland]

Bogies and the Loop Oct 2013 pp6,7,9  photos and plans by Robert Stears-they resembled the old pre 1885 DSP&P lettering

[Geoff Hamway]

Jim,

Here's a clearer scan of an 1898 D&RG straight air brake diagram, which shows the expected cutoff valve right at the back of the brake cylinder.  Placement of the valve might vary, but as Pat says, there had to be a way to cut out a leaking cylinder and avoid losing air pressure in the system.



I don't have a C&S rule book, but I consulted my trusty 1906 D&RG rule book and didn't find anything limiting the number or placement of cars with cut-out brakes (admittedly, I haven't passed the exam yet and might have missed something).  

Timetable special rules would be another place to look.  For example, RGS timetable #45 (5/1905) includes a rule that limits cars with defective air brakes on the 4% grades to one in solid coal or ore trains and not more than two in merchandise or mixed trains,  Apparently it was left to the crew's judgment everywhere else!

Geoff Hamway

[Robert McFarland]

UPD&G on the left ,number on the right.

[Jim Courtney]

Thanks Pat and Geoff,

I knew there had to be a cylinder cutof, just never could find it! Think this was the similar convention with the 24'  B&S cars as well?

And I agree, Pat. When I use the phrase bunched at the rear of the train, I envisioned one or two cars. It would be unlikely to have more than a couple of D&RG interchange cars in any South Park / C&S train.

[Jim Courtney]

You may have stumbled onto the only known photo of one of the 28 foot St Charles boxcars, initially delivered to the UPD&G in early 1898 with UPD&G reporting marks in the 6500 series. (says Jim)

I have no vision of how that lettering looks in my head, do you have a picture? (asks Chris)

I have seen at least one photo of one of the 30 foot St Charles boxcars in the delivery UPD&G lettering, but for the life of me I can't find it in my computer files or in my books.

Derrell Poole built a beautiful O scale model of one of the 30 footers years ago, and a photo was posted on the old Cimarron Works website, in the "Gallery" section:




The Leadville Shops currently has an O scale lettering set for the 1898 St Charles boxcar, that includes the UPD&G lettering for the first batch of cars, ordered in 1897, delivered in early 1898. So perhaps Bob Stears has a good photo.

This UPD&G lettering didn't last long, likely from early 1898 at delivery, repainted into "The Colorado Road" scheme by 1900 or 1901.

It's hard to argue about absolute identification of a boxcar in such a blurry enlargement, but I still lean towards this being one of the 28 foot St Charles cars, but who knows!  I'll keep looking in my files and books.

Sounds like Robert has found the photo -- we need to buy him a scanner, so he can post his finds . . .

[Robert McFarland]

Is the Cimarron Works website still  active or has it  been taken down?

[Jim Courtney]

My links no longer work.

The Leadville Shops is the successor site to TCW.

[Robert McFarland]

Could somebody talk them into showing some of the old Cimarron stuff.

[Jim Courtney]

Found it! Robert is right, in Coel's Goin' Railroading, page 37:



Sam Speas collection, in Coel, Margaret: Goin' Railroading.

Location seems to be Como, near the stock pens. Date is at least 1898, on the eve of the new C&S.
The boxcar to the right carries the more familiar UPD&G lettering.
Winter must have come early that year, the sheep haven't yet made it to market!





To me, the number seems to be UPD&G 6514, as on Derrell's model; second choice 6511.

How I'd love to have a high resolution scan of the original print . . .

[Chris Walker]

Jim,

thanks, I have never seen that style of lettering before nor noticed it in that picture with the Sheep. This sure is turning into a headscratcher.

I have only one reservation about that being the car(s) in question though.
There is way to much empty space to the left of the lettering (model example), does not fit with either of the two cars shown at Idaho.



That leads to the C&N-W/ DB&W, what lettering styles were applied to Boxcars that have a close resemblance to the D&RG?

We can rule out this as well.
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/71186/rv/singleitem/rec/8

[Jim Courtney]

Head scratcher indeed!

Me thinks that the UPD&G lettering on Derrell's model is a bit under scale, probably pieced together from lettering available to him at the time. The "UPD&G" on the 30 foot boxcar in the sheep photo seems taller to me, and closer to the left end of the car. And if your Idaho Springs boxcar was one of the 28 footers, it would be even closer.

Can you date the Idaho Springs photo that you posted accurately? The lettering on the other freight cars suggest 1900-1901 to me.

The big "D.&R.G." reporting marks didn't show up until 1903, with the delivery of the 3000 series boxcars. (This will get us back on topic for this thread). I don't believe it was applied to the 27 foot and 30 foot 4000 series cars until a bit later, say 1906-1910. Perhaps our D&RG experts can opine.

The D&RG standard boxcar lettering of 1900 was much smaller, initials and numbers, as in these two photos, both from the Dorman collection:



One of the AT&SF built boxcars with TOTC lettering.



Typical pre-1903 boxcar lettering, unchanged as late as 1912 (per the reweigh lettering/date).

The D&RG lettering prior to 1903 seems too small for the mystery Idaho Springs boxcar.

No way to know for sure, but does make for an interesting discussion, photos a flyin'!

[Chris Walker]

Jim,
Can you date the Idaho Springs photo that you posted accurately? The lettering on the other freight cars suggest 1900-1901 to me.

I can date the Chamberlain photo as between the introduction of the Script Colorado and Southern and the burning of the Bertha/Alpine Concentrator noted on Dec 1907 Sanborn Maps, possibly that was 1906, the Bertha being present in the Chamberlain Sampler photo.  

What date was the Script lettering started?

The other picture of 12th(6th) Avenue show on the left what appears to be a standard lettered UPD&G Boxcar sandwiched between two script lettered C&S Boxcars.  I found it interesting as an aside, that in this picture the Dewey Bro's Sampler still has the signboard on the ridgeline.  Closest I can say is this is post 1900 but pre 1907, probably earlier after T-o-C since the Dewey siding appears to stretch back to the Depot to connect with the Plummer Switch, something not shown on the 1900 Sanborn map.

Idaho Springs Historical Soc.

I certainly take onboard your examples of the lettering of the D&RG,  I don't have the A Century plus Ten book.
Maybe it is too early for the larger D&RG after all yet and we're trying to put a "within 5 year" period to these photos, something that has never been my forte.  

The UPD&G "new" lettering certainly fits with the 12th Ave picture but would the UPD&G  lettering be around 5years after the C&S was formed?
What else should be considered here, since I'm still scratching?  

[Jim Courtney]

What date was the Script lettering started?
. . .would the UPD&G  lettering be around 5years after the C&S was formed?

The "UPD&G" lettering in Roman initials was unique to the first batch of St Charles boxcars, ordered in 1897, delivery early to mid 1898, total of 25 cars, first five cars 28 foot, remainder 30 foot, all 25 ton capacity. Renumbered C&S 7722-7746.

This "UPD&G" lettering style in Roman initials was also used on the side sills of the first batch of (3-board high) St Charles coal cars, delivered late 1897- early 1898. UPD&G numbers 3930-4015, renumbered to C&S 4000-4085, total 86 cars.

Both the new UPD&G boxcars and coal cars were re-lettered into "The Colorado Road" scheme. This began in 1899, likely completed by 1901, 1903 at latest.

As these cars were the newest and heaviest cars in the C&S freight car fleet, I would think that they would have been prioritized for re-lettering (to get anything "UP" off the car sides).

So  if  the boxcar in the 12th/6th Ave photo were one of the new 28 foot St Charles boxcars, I'd think you would be looking at a time window of mid 1898 to mid 1900. It would be consistent with the boxcars in "new" Colorado Road C&S lettering and the older Union Pacific Denver and Gulf lettering, both spelled out, coexisting in the same time period.

The second batch of St Charles cars were delivered in late 1898, just as the new C&S was being incorporated, but were factory lettered for the C&S in the "St Charles Roman", the same font as used on the UPD&G lettering.

This delivery included 60 4-board coal cars (C&S 4086-4245), 40 near identical boxcars (C&S 8025-8064) and 6 of the big reefers (C&S 550-555). These cars likely skipped the "Colorado Road" lettering style, eventually re-lettered in the block style in the early to mid teens.


As to the Chamberlain Sampler photo, I tend to agree with Dave Eggleston that this may have been an inherited box car, still carrying DSP&P lettering; not because it's legible, but it looks to me like there is a light fascia board visible, typical of the DSP&P / DL&G box cars. The lettering on the car's left side looks too long for "D&RG" and cars lettered "Union Pacific" usually had the number under the lettering.  It would be really odd for it to have lasted that long!

[Chris Walker]

Whilst mining the achives for tit-bits.......this came to light unexpectedly.

Given the date, then obviously D&RG as at that time it was N.G. unless there was an R.G.S. car available?




There maybe more to come, I have found the best bits sneak in when one is looking for somethingelse.

[Chris Walker]

A long haul.....

[Dave Eggleston]

Beside the South Park I've had a long and tortuous interest in the Nevada Central Railroad. Ore from central Nevada mines was shipped by rail or teams to Salt Lake at times. It all seems related to direct ownership of the Nevada mines and those Utah processing sites. Not as long as the haul you mention.

Thinking on it further, maybe this shipment was related to some specialized process at that mill such as was seen with Murphy mine ores that weren't processed fully successfully in St Elmo until a specialized roasting process developed at Black Hawk was put in place in the mid-1890s at the Paiute Mill. Maybe the referenced mill had some specialized process seen as necessary for processing?

[Chris Walker]

Dave,  

I'd have to read up a lot more on the difficulties with certain types of ore and the early treatment processes, which by the way is discussed in USGS publications, but I find it rather "filling my head with nothing", as my Father once said to me.

Upper Chalk Creek to Idaho as well, I'd love to know details on the routing(and car ownership) of this episode, given the "lateness" of that date.

[Dave Eggleston]

Chris, I only know of it thanks to the newspapers discussing the problems they had processing Murphy ore at the Paiute Mill! Learning about that was collateral damage in the hunt to figure out St Elmo.

I'd venture a risky guess that routings got weirder as time passed and the boom times of open mills nearby ended.

The Murphy did ship ore to Black Hawk briefly in the search for the optimum processing, presumably all on UP-controlled rails. Successful, the Paiute was designed to roast the ore similarly, which meant the ore moved only a mile or so from bins to mill rather than cross-country. The volumes anticipated allowed for that convenience, even in the mid 1890s--processing paid the cost of the Paiute's construction within the first year of operation. This leads to further thoughts on captive cars handling this short haul traffic. This stuff keeps me up at night daydreaming about how operations on a functional layout of just the Hancock to Alpine (Fischer) area might play out.

[Chris Walker]

Well, don't that beat all!    

I'm wondering about the routing(as usual)?
R.G.S. Telluride to Ridgway,
D.&R.G. via Montrose to Salida, Pueblo, Denver,
U.P.D.&G. Denver to Idaho.
or
R.G.S. Telluride to Ridgway,
D.&R.G. via Montrose to Gunnison,
D.L&G. D.S.P.&.P. to Denver, (edit)
U.P.D.&G. Denver to Idaho.