Time For A C&S Quiz: Where?

[Chris Walker]

Climax_1938_Mount_Lincoln_USGS


1970_Climax_USGS


http://historicalmaps.arcgis.com/usgs/

Good luck on figuring just where the railroad ends and the surface trams begin.  Earlier trams were 2ft but whether those were used around the Mill proper I don't know since there was an overhead tram down to the mill.  After construction of the Phillipson level tunnel, the 3ft gauge tram looped around overhead.
I have noticed at the Stanley Mine, the USGS on the Idaho Special map shows the C&S switchbacking across Clear Creek on known to be 18" ga. mine track.    showing they (USGS) don't differentiate between gauges.


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/36912/rv/singleitem


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/36900/rv/singleitem

[Jim Courtney]

Don't forget Jimmy's 1904 map of Fremont Pass:

http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Ten-Mile-Stations-of-the-D-amp-RG-td6164i80.html




The original spur to the mill later became the north leg of the wye. When the covered turntable was removed, the south leg of the wye was constructed, the "Office" building ending up in the middle of the wye. All of the other C&S structures remained the same.

You can leave out the D&RG track.

[Keith Hayes]

Looks like the crews used the eye as a runaround. Possible,  but a brain twister.

Jim the engine house in the folio looks about half the length of the Boreas-Alpine structures. Also, where is the depot?

I bet the track changed from year to year as they built more facilities. Looks like there are both point and trailing spurs.

And what would they haul in the cars with roof hatches? I recall Harry Bruno modelling these. Cement? How many were there? 2-3?

[Jim Courtney]

Also, where is the depot?


There wasn't a true depot at Climax, just the small telegraph office with its outfit cars on the ground. On Jimmy's map, it is just to the right of the section house. Until the molybdenum operation began in the mid-19teens, no one but company employees had much of a reason to get off there.




This image from about 1915 shows the telegraph office at the far right frame. Section house to the left, the distinctive mine office building with its two gables at the left frame. D&RG tracks in foreground have yet to be removed. I see no evidence of the south leg of the wye, so the view pretty much matches Jimmy's map.





An enlargement of the section house, with its mud room.





The telegraph office and car bodies for the operator to live, back in mid 1880s, shortly after the Highline was completed.





A 1929 view, same perspective. The already growing mill is just about dead center. Construction materials for the mill are already accumulating this side of the siding. Note the C&S locomotive at the right frame--a helper, about to turn on the wye, before returning light to Leadville?





Evidently the passenger train commonly stopped between the section house and the telegraph office.  The south corner of the section house is at the right frame. The turnout off the main to the south leg of the wye is under the R-P-O.

[Robert McFarland]

The second car body behind the telegraph office-the one with window and step.I had seen this photo in a previous thread and wondered if that car body was one of the old construction cars like the ones in the photo of Mason #3 in Chalk Creek .

[Jim Courtney]

Looks like the crews used the wye as a runaround. Possible, but a brain twister.

My thoughts:

I'm not sure the wye was used as either a runaround or to turn engines (very often) while the Como-Leadville mainline was still in place.

Since you are modeling the 1930s, remember that Dickey had long since ceased to exist as a helper station. Locomotives (road engine and helpers alike) ran through from Como to Leadville and return the following day. So, it wasn't necessary to turn helpers on the Climax wye to return eastbound or westbound, except for maybe work or rotary trains.

According to Mike Trent's operational descriptions from former train crews, Leadville bound freights were primarily consists of cars consigned to Climax (loads of building materials and empties for the Moly mill). A westbound freight would work up Tenmile Canon, with 2-4 engines, and set out cars for Climax when reaching the summit of the pass. According to Mike, switching was not done westbound. So, all the cars consigned to Climax were likely shoved back along the south leg of the wye and left on the long tail track, clear of the tail track switch at the east end of the wye. The helpers would be released to run light to Leadville, and the road engine, caboose and what few cars that were consigned Denver to Leadville would follow.

The next morning, the east bound freight with helpers would depart Leadville with occasional cars consigned to Denver + any narrow gauge cars consigned to Climax, that had lading transferred from standard gauge D&RGW cars. At Climax the eastbound helpers would be released to run light to Dickey, for coal and water. The road engine with train and caboose would remain on the mainline, down near the section house.

The road engine and train crew would then switch both the siding and the mill, using the  the 3-way stub switch at the north end of the "yard" and the north leg of the wye. Cars of building materials from the previous day's set-out would be pulled from the tail track of the wye and spotted on the siding, and both eastbound and west bound empties would be switched out of the cars on the siding: Occasional Leadville bound cars left at the south end of the siding for the next westbound, eastbound empties shoved back on the main against the caboose.

Then the mill itself would be switched, with loads of Moly pulled, shoved back on the main against the ever growing east bound train and then empties spotted for loading. Any cars at sites of active mill construction (like that flat car with I-beams, now unloaded) would also be pulled and added to the train.

With Climax switching done, the locomotive would couple on to the new eastbound consist on the main, test air, then work down the Tenmile to Dickey. After watering and coaling, pulling and adding east bound empty coal cars from the coal chute, helpers would be cut in and the entire train would depart for Breckenridge, Boreas pass and ultimately Como, to tie up.

Mike, please correct me if I've misstated anything.

For modeling purposes, Keith, perhaps you could model just the siding and wye, and find a way to include a 2-track hidden "mill" yard at the end of the wye tail track, for 4-5 empties "in" on one track and 4-5 loads "out" on the other.

Of course, if your operating after 1938, you just have a Leadville to Climax branch line, and the engine would have to be turned on the wye to return to Leadville.

[Keith Hayes]

Well, that is not many carloads, Jim. I was hoping for 6-10. Thanks for the whole recap. I could not bear to think through that all myself. I confess it troubled me that crews would not drop Climax-consigned cars at the pass on the way into Leadville. Are you sure, though? I recall seeing a loaf of timbers in a coal in Leadville,  and a similar load in Denver. But then, timbers are timbers.

[Jim Courtney]

Well, 4-5 cars of moly from the mill (in and out); another 4-5 cars of construction materials to the siding, (in and out); plus a few thru cars to Leadville/Denver, might total 10-12 car trains, requiring one or two helpers.

Remember, in the 1930s, the siding at Climax wasn't a "siding" in terms of trains meeting or passing each other. It was a destination where cars of lumber, pipe or machinery could be spotted for unloading and trackside storage. Rare meets might have involved other tracks. Remember the two photos in the Mineral Belt II, with the Denver bound passenger train, backed into the north leg of the wye, to let an arriving 2 engine freight from Como pass?

As to how the trains were operated, it's just an educated guess. My railroading experience was brief, but I cannot conceive of a train crew with 3 or 4 engines hauling a consist to the top of the continental divide, then running on to Leadville, only to turn around the next morning and haul the consist back up to the top of the divide.

Thru trains were commonly blocked with "shorts" placed at the front of the train, so they could be set out at a town between terminals. Just because they were "set out" doesn't mean they were "switched". That might be done by a local switch crew, or a peddler freight working the opposite direction. Between Como and Leadville, the "Climax shorts" might have been most of the train.

And as to inbound building materials, not all of it had to come from Denver. As to cars in Leadville with lading for Climax, a significant amount may have originated on the Pacific Coast and had been transferred from standard gauge cars delivered by the D&RGW (having already crossed the continental divide at Tennessee Pass).

Perhaps that load of timbers in the coal car in Leadville was California redwood.

[Chris Walker]

Keith,  are you still thinking?

While you're still thinking about it, you could work up this Load+Idler for the hill.   

[Keith Hayes]

Well! That is a superior load.