Snowplow Information

[Mike Trent]

From the C&S Brass Post. Jim, can you repost the photos? Looks like they didn't make the trip.

Wow, Mike, was nothing standard on the C&Sng?

I measured my plows, all are 42" from the bottom of the blade center to the top of the blade, so they were likely based on C&S 2-6-0s. And 3 out of 4 have the extra plates under the pilot beam and the coupler draft gear, like on number 9. One doesn't, must have come from a number 60, can't remember. So, I have both plows.

As for fitting under the larger 2-8-0s, I'm backdating my 71 to about 1924, based on the Otto Perry photo. This is what I'm aiming for:




And this is as far as I've gotten:




I think the plow looks pretty good, though now that you've gone and mentioned it, I'll probably file off the little plates ala number 9.

Or, by larger engines, are you referring to the big B4-Fs??




The plow on number 75 looks pretty tall, too.

Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
Mike Trent Reply | Threaded | More
Mar 10, 2024; 8:32pm Re: C&S Brass, Any Scale, Listed on eBay
Mike Trentonline
Administrator
863 posts
Jim, life and knowledge are continuing journeys.  You have just nailed a couple of things for me, previously missed.

You included photos of #71 and #75, and both appear to have 42" plows. The model of #71 from OMI where we discovered the 2nd version, is 36" high, not 42". The B-4-D's are where the "Bigger" 2-8-0's begin, as compared to the B-4-C's and smaller. I used 36" plows on my #71, #73, #74, and #75. I am very sure #71 and #74 had 36" plows. The reason for this is that both #71 and #74 were fitted with newer flat faced smokebox fronts with larger doors. In your picture, #71 still has the slightly extended "UP Style" front end on the smokebox, and so does #75. Those have smaller radius doors which allow the 42" plows. So thanks for the followup. No, I'm not changing the others. But note that the second version is 36", not 42". Im going to venture a guess that the plow without the welded plates at the pilot beam is from your or someone's #60.

Keith, don't get too carried away yet with the Upper Coal Gates. I'll start another post on them and how they were used. The only thing they had in common was that they were all made with 2X4's and they were
each made to fit each locomotive.  I'll try to do that tomorrow.    
Norm Acker Reply | Threaded | More
Mar 11, 2024; 8:40am Re: C&S Brass, Any Scale, Listed on eBay
Norm Acker
89 posts
Hi Mike,
Thanks for all of the great plow information.

I should have dug a little deeper into photos before I had that wild hair with SketchUp a few days ago! We all joke about the "standards" used on our favorite railroad and that certainly applies to plows and coal gates as well. 20/20 hindsight is my specialty sometimes, ha.

I grabbed my scale ruler and drew that from an Ed Gebhart drawing in a 1996 copy of the "Bear Trap" that Paul Howald gave me a few years ago. Silly me for assuming that they were all alike... Back when I started out in On30 I scratched one out of stripwood for my Bachmann #22 on a whim (I use it for Christmas tree circling duty these days), but I figured that I needed about 8 of them so why not save some time.

I was so excited that Keith helped me out (thanks again, Keith!) by finishing the 3d drawing with the hardware and posting them to Shapeways - I'm using an old free version of SketchUp 8 and I was intimidated at the thought of drawing carriage bolts - that I immediately ordered 12 of them. So I'll have to do some modifications to be loco-specific as I add coal loads and details to some of my fleet.

Thanks again everyone for the great information that you share here, I really appreciate it!
Cheers, Norm
Norm in Littleton, CO
 - on the C&S Silica Branch
1 ... 910111213

[Jim Courtney]

Thanks Mike, for starting a new thread on the snow plows! Often very fascinating C&S info turns up as a side conversation in an unrelated thread, thereafter buried there, invisible to later searches.

Mike's point (correct me if I misstate anything) is that there was a "standard" C&Sng butterfly snow plow for decades, then in the late 1920s or early 1930s a variation was constructed as some locomotives were rebuilt and modernized.

In a discussion about the On3 and Sn3 snowplows that Overland imported with its C&S locomotives, Mike pointed out that the "standard" height of the plows from bottom of the blade to the top of the blade at track centerline was 42" (forget about the ovoid wings on the sides). This was measured to be true of the plows on C&S 60 and C&S 9. Mike pointed out that some locomotives had a similar but shorter blade, only 36" from bottom to top at center. These similar but shorter plows were found on the 2-8-0s that had been rebuilt with new smokebox fronts, flat without the UP era small extensions, and larger diameter doors that were secured in place with multiple flat dogs.

So, the 2-8-0s that retained the original extend smoke box front used the 42" tall plows, while any 2-8-0 with the modern flat smokebox front required a similar but shorter plow, to allow the new door to clear when opened. Number 9 was the exception as to new, flat smoke box doors, as its larger driver diameter and the seat on the cylinder saddle allowed the new door to clear the top of the 42" plow.

So let's look at some photos (my favorite part!) . . .

First number 9 vs number 10 with plows:


1936


1931


Now the larger 2-8-0s, B4-Ds and up:


1920


1933


1931


1923, long before acquiring flat face


My unfinished 1924 version of 71 in Sn3.  The Overland Sn3 plows came in 2 versions, both 42" tall. This plow from OMI number 9.


Otto Perry's 1926 version of 71.


1934 view of 71--still has the original smoke fox front.


Couldn't find a photo of the final version of 71 with a plow, but this is a photo of the On3 Overland model that I found on eBay a few years back.


1931


1936


Flat faced number 74 in 1934



Both views above of 74 in 1941


1934


1935


The CB&Q cousin in 1932


If anyone has a photo of the last version of 71 with a plow, please post it.

Has anyone ever seen a photo of number 76 with a plow?

[Mike Trent]

Jim, thanks for reposting the pictures and a few new ones too.  Keith goaded me into making the change to a separate thread. My reply to Norm Acker's post about the cast coal gates missed the move. Thanks, Norm!  

I have never seen a photograph of #76 with a plow. Oddly enough, Doug Schnarbush went to work on the West End out of Como in 1927 and worked all the way to abandonment in 1937. He fired #71 many times in those days. Doug moved his family to Denver soon after the line shut down. He said the first time he ever saw #71 without a plow was when he took his family up to Central City and saw the engine on display up there. So it ran with it's plow year round.  

[Chris Walker]

Couldn't find a photo of the final version of 71 with a plow, but this is a photo of the On3 Overland model that I found on eBay a few years back.

Jim,

is this what you seek?


You missed #60....


and the separated #8

[Jim Courtney]

Thanks for the assist, Chris!

Turns out I do have some photos of C&S 71 with plow (misfiled in my hard drive):


1936


1937, Breckenridge


1937, last run East, Gold Pan


I didn't mean to slight C&S 60:  Mike's criteria, B4-Ds and larger. Besides 60 was an anomaly. That small, original Rhode Island smoke box door would have cleared a 48" plow.

Wonder why C&S 8 seem to frequently get caught with her plow down?




A question for Mike---do we know when number 74 acquired the flat smoke box front? Was it when 74 had the Walschaerts valve gear applied?

C&S 74 still has her original smoke box front with extension when she helped re-rail number 75 and her top-heavy tender during the winter of 1923-24:



A.A.Anderson photos, Estabrook Canon, in the Klingers' Platte Canon Memories . . .

[Mike Trent]

Hi Jim. Probably so. I've always assumed #74 received the flat front as part of it's major overhaul in 1926. I don't  know if it was the first, but it seems early.

Other engines to receive flat fronts were #9, #70, and #71.