Selkirk

[Don Pacetti]

In an attempt to stop my hijacking of Jim Courtney's Coal Chute thread, I decided to start a new one concerning Selkirk. As a long-term fan of the South Park railroads I just had to have the Selkirk Trestle on my layout. When Bob provided me the ICC Valuation Map, and I saw there was a tank, pump house, coal house and chutes there, I was thrilled. I was even more thrilled when he provided me the photo of the tank. So let's see how good our team of C&Sn3 detectives are at finding additional information on this facinating location. Let's start with the ICC Valuation Map.



And here is the Denver Water Board tank photo again.



Jim's 1946 photo of the trestle and grade.


<a href="http://">http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/44194/rec/3

[Jim Courtney]

Don got me interested in this location, so last night in the hospital I did some searching.

Park County Local Historic Archives had a few images that I found interesting, in the Boreas Pass index:



Negative 531

I believe this image is to the east of Selkirk, pretty blurry, but two engine train, six cars and waycar.



Negative 2814

I thought this image showed a passenger train climbing the grade above Selkirk, with the Selkirk trestle in the background. But with further study, I think that is the Gold Pan trestle in the background, the train climbing "African-American Hill", with Windy Point in the far left distance. What do ya'll think?

Finally, this is obviously Baker's Tank, but the image is to cool not to post!


Negative 2079

The caption dates the photo to 1917, but it looks earlier to me. Looks like a reefer in front of the coach.

[Jeff Young]

Hi Jim,

The valley in that second image looks too steep (both above and below the trestle) for Gold Pan.  I think that is Selkirk.

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Chris Walker]

from pg130 The Mineral Belt 2 David S Digerness

from pg131 The Mineral Belt 2 David S Digerness

I'm pickin' on Gold Pan over Illinois Gulch......it's been many years since I drove over Boreas (both ways) but the topography is too steep (negative 2814-Jim's post) in the background to be at Selkirk which is much more open....to my thinking....

[Jeff Young]

Hmm…. I always thought Gold Pan trestle was over the long sweeping curve at the bottom of Illinois Gulch — but that’s Hookeye curve.  It appears Gold Pan was the next ravine upgrade, where the line actually crosses (the now much steeper) Illinois Gulch.

So I think Jim and Chris have this right after all.

[Don Pacetti]

Thanks for participating guys. Here is a shot of my HO model of the tank. Just finished it last night. Not perfect match, but good enough.

[Jeff Young]

Excellent job, Don!

(Perfect match or not, it’s immediately identifiable to me.)

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Jim Courtney]

Beautiful model, Don, but it still needs number 9 and a couple of business cars, stopped for water.

[Mike Trent]

Very interesting, as usual. And great stuff, Don! Love that tank.

As one not often swayed by political correctness, I believe in this case, being swayed is arguably warranted.

So in the spirit of referring to the name of that notorious hill outside of Breckenridge for the reason it was originally named as it was, we could simply refer to it as "Klinker Hill", as that is what it was named for.

For those who might be outraged by the origin of the original name, do not read on.

OK, you've been warned. If you are confused by this, simply think of it as Jim might have more accurately referred to as "African American Head Hill", as that name might be somewhat more easily palatable to today's sensibilities than "Nigger Hill". This is as it was referred to in old times, based on the term "niggerhead", which was another word for klinker, as the knobby texture seemed similar and quite socially acceptable  to refer to as such back in the day. Sometimes, as we all know, history has a few rough edges.  

So for me, Klinker Hill works just fine, and no one should be offended, and we can refer to it as an accurately evolved term. Sometimes it's just time to move on.

[Don Peterson]

Mike
I seem to recall that the hill in question was also known as "Barney Ford Hill" who was "African American".

From Wikipedia:
"Barney Ford was an escaped slave who became a wealthy Colorado businessman and civil-rights pioneer. He's a member of the Colorado Black Hall of Fame, the Colorado Business Hall of Fame, and has a stained-glass portrait in the House Chamber of the Colorado State Capitol..."

"...In 1882, Ford moved to Breckenridge, Colorado, where they built a home on a city block that he owned. His home has been restored and is now the Barney Ford House Museum, though none of the furnishings now into it belonged to the Fords"

The now un-politically correct term was acceptable back in the day, I assume.

I had never heard the term "Klinker Hill" though. I like the story.

Don Peterson

[Mike Trent]

Don, I, on the other hand, had never heard the story of Barney Ford. If it is true that the hill was named for him, even in jest, it's a sad commentary of the times.

Unfortunately, I would not be surprised if this was true.

The "Klinker Hill" suggestion is my own, and I'll withdraw it, as we'll never know if it's really applicable.

Thanks for the post.

[Jeff Young]

Hi Mike,

It gave me that impression at first too, but then I discovered there was a trend to rename places with offensive names after famous people of the maligned race/culture/whatever in an attempt to somewhat redress the balance.  (There was an article regarding a similar instance near Central City.)

Anyway, I felt a little better calling it Barney Ford Hill after that….

Cheers,

Jeff.

On 31 Jan 2016, at 10:45, Mike Trent [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Don, I, on the other hand, had never heard the story of Barney Ford. If it is true that the hill was named for him, even in jest, it's a sad commentary of the times.

Unfortunately, I would not be surprised if this was true.

The "Klinker Hill" suggestion is my own, and I'll withdraw it, as we'll never know if it's really applicable.

Thanks for the post.

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[Todd Hackett]

I've seen numerous stories about Barney Ford, all attributing the original name of the hill to him. Most were from the time that the hill was renamed to "Barney Ford Hill." Apparently, he was important enough in the community to have a feature named for him, but not enough to actually use his name. I recently found a stereo view of the area on eBay, and the seller apparently felt uncomfortable providing the information printed on the card verbatim, so he listed it as "Colorado Stereoview Negro Hill and Snow Sheds Breckenridge Alex Martin."

[ComoDepot]

I would need to double check my source but my recollection is that the hill was renamed in 1964. The impression I had was that it was political.

I know the original name pre dates the railroad, its origin is anybody's guess. The story I heard was it was the site of Barneys claim.

Most of the negative comments in the early days seemed directed at Italians and Chinese.

[South Park]

  I thought the Barney Ford backstory was well known.

  This kind of naming was relatively common out west.  SW of Spokane is "Negro Creek",  a PC renaming of the original "Nigger Creek", and named after a black man, who settled in the drainage area early in this area's non-indian settlement.  We have had a steady stream of calls for renaming all the "Squaw Mountains", "Squaw Creeks", etc. around the state, as the term seems to incite the native tribes.  A most recent call was for renaming "Coon Creek" over near Omak, as someone thought that made some reference to blacks, although I believe no connection could be documented, and it was argued that it was more likely to be short for "raccoon".

  I think we miss the historical point that words like "nigger",  "negro",  "redskin", etc. were once common American parlance and used without intent to demean.  Of course, SOME people used these terms in a derogatory way, but I think this was more of a regional thing, and out west, it was less likely to be mean-spirited toward blacks than say, Alabama.  Conversely, in reading historical documents, it seems references to "indians" were more likely to be derogatory in the 19th century that in modern times.  I have known my share of bigots who disdain blacks, but cannot recall ever hearing a bigot rant about indians.  

  As this forum seems to center around a history-based subject, it is interesting to get one's head into the historic space held in old times as part of the understanding of your subject of study.

[Robert McFarland]

Reading about Weston and the DSP&P building through South Park I read quite a bit of material from the Fairplay Flume from 1879-80 and the editor of the Flume seemed to be on a one man crusade to run the Utes and all other Indians out of Colorado.Talk about a racist rant.Remember, though ,that things weren't to far removed from the Indian wars in Colorado during the 60s.A lot of innocent blood was spilled on both sides.The Meeker 'massacre'  threw a big scare into the residents of central Colorado in late 1879 and some towns panicked somewhat like the scene in a movie about  a panic in Dodge City(I think it was How the West was Won)

[South Park]

  A contemporary tome, Tending the Talking Wire, is a compilation of letters written by a Quaker U.S. Army soldier assigned to protect the first transcontinental telegraph during the Civil War.  His posts were out of Fort Kearney.  His letters go from pacifism to outright disgust with the natives as he writes to his sister back in Ohio.  Such contemporary examples of this kind of transformation are rare and give a real time glimpse at attitudes of the times.  A very good read, if you can find it.

[Jeff Ramsey]

Here is another view on Selkirk tank.

[Jim Courtney]

Also the Denver Water Board inspection special.

Likely the same photographer, the same day, as the photo at the start of the thread.  Same dense mass of ice on the near side of the tank.

In the photo that Don posted, the photographer climbed the little hill to the right, probably stood in front of the small conifer at the right frame.

Chris is right.  The topography here is pretty wide open at this elevation, no dense forest around the tank.

Great photo, Jeff, thanks for posting!

[Jeff Young]

But no coal chute or coal house in that last picture.  Gone by that date?

(Water Board special was 1929, correct?)

Jeff.