Chris Walker's Idaho Springs freight cars of c.1902

[Jim Courtney]

Chris was able to enlarge and clean up a photo of a string of TOTC C&S freight cars on a siding and spur in Idaho Springs c.1900-1902. We had a lengthy discussion about the identity of the cars on another thread some time ago: http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/D-RG-D-RGW-Freight-Car-Information-tp11167p11240.html

These new enlargements by Chris provide an incredible amount of new info on early C&S freight cars. The enlargements solve one freight car mystery, while creating two new mysteries. For the sake of discussion, I have further enlarged, cropped and played with the individual photos.

OK, first freight car, first mystery. Working from left to right (west to east):




At left is a boxcar in the "Colorado Road" lettering, with a car number that I read as "7000". So what's the mystery?? Every C&S roster that I've ever seen lists C&S 7000 as a 27 foot stock car! According to Derrell Poole and Ron Rudnick, C&S 7000 was originally a DSP&P 26- foot, 10- ton stock car built by the UP Omaha shops in 1882, one of 9 cars, numbered DSP&P 18000-18008.

Derrell, in his C&S Connection plans for the inherited stock cars noted that the South Park stock cars were rebuilt c.1894, along with Colorado Central 27-foot stock cars, also constructed by the UP in 1882, into an identical class of 27 foot, 12-ton stock cars, riding on 12-ton Litchfield style trucks. All these cars were renumbered C&S 7000-7014 after 1899.

So WTH, how is stock car 7000 now a boxcar about 1902?? One possibility is that when the C&S took delivery of the 50 St Charles (by then AC&F) 30-foot stock cars in the Spring of 1900, the small inherited stock cars became obsolete. The C&S shops may have rebuilt one or more of the 27 foot stock cars to boxcars. The 7000 in the photo above still has the typical 1890s white upper fascia boards--perhaps the stock car was just sheathed over the stock car posts and diagonal braces, the roof untouched.

The other possibility is that I'm misreading the number--if I squint just right, the number could be C&S 7600.

Edit: Ron Rudnick's roster of freight cars at the inception of the C&S shows car series 7554-7615 to be former Kansas Central 27-foot, 14-ton boxcars built by the UP in 1883-84. This group of KC boxcars was transferred to the DL&G when the KC was standard gauged. So, if the car number in the photo is really 7600, there is no mystery.

So, take your best look at the still blurry number and you decide between the two possibilities.
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Next boxcar, second new mystery. The boxcar still carries UPD&G lettering. The first digit of the car number is hidden behind the open door, but is likely 25147. The UPD&G had two classes of boxcars listed in the rosters at the inception of the C&S. Series 24600-24664, records indicate that these 27 foot, 14 ton UP built cars were transferred to the UPD&G when the Kansas Central was standard gauged. According to Ron Rudnick, in his UPD&G / DL&G Modeling Guide, the KC cars were lettered like this when transferred to the UPD&G:


In Rudnick's UPD&G / DL&G Moeling guide, page 21.


The other UPD&G boxcars were a variety of old Colorado Central 24 foot boxcars, clumped together in numbers 26500-26600.

So, 'splain to me how a boxcar numbered UPD&G 25147 shows up in Idaho Springs, when no such car exists on the rosters?? My only explanation is that there were UP system narrow gauge boxcars carrying numbers in the 25100-25203 series--these were the original Kansas Central 27 foot boxcar numbers prior to transfer to the UPD&G. Ron Rudnick, in the text of his Modeling Guide, states that there is evidence of 6-12 KC boxcars showing up in Colorado "off the books", not recorded in the rosters of boxcar transfers. So IMHO, UPD&G 25147 is one such car, never renumbered from its KC number, but eventually lettered for the UPD&G.

Please opine if you have another explanation.
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Next up, two more boxcars, and a mystery solved:




The car at left is not a D&RG car nor one of the 28 foot St Charles boxcars acquired in the spring of 1898, as we variously opined in an earlier thread (http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/D-RG-D-RGW-Freight-Car-Information-tp11167p11240.html).  Nope, just a 27 foot UP built boxcar with an atypical early C&S lettering scheme. We've seen this lettering scheme before: http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll21/id/3661/rec/56

"Colo. & So." 7584 is listed as one of the Kansas Central UP-built 27 foot boxcars transferred to the DL&G, C&S series 7554-7615. So it is a sister to UPD&G 25147 discussed upthread. I have a stash of Bill Meredith's 27 foot boxcar kits, one is going to be lettered for this car, if I can find an ampersand ("&") of the right size to match my decal sets.

The boxcar to the right, C&S 7222 is another camera shy first decade C&S boxcar. It is one of the UP built 24-foot boxcars of 1880, constructed for the Colorado Central. These cars were renumbered to C&S 7213-7271 in 1899. I have a Cimarron Works laser cut kit for this series of cars and will try to letter it like this one.
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To the right of the boxcars are two 30 foot coal cars:




C&S 4814 is one of the Peninsular 30 foot coal cars of 1884. Note the tapered side sills and the extra stake pockets, centered between the stakes. In 1899, these cars were assigned numbers 4793-4997.

To the right is one of the St Charles 3-board coal cars, 86 cars of 25-ton capacity, first order built for the UPD&G in the March / April of 1897, with a second group delivered in early 1898. Originally numbered UPD&G 3930-4015, this group of cars were renumbered to C&S 4000-4086, and re-lettered in the "Colorado Road' scheme.
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Moving east, coal cars and a boxcar:




All four coal cars in this photo are St Charles 4-board, 30-foot, 25-ton coal cars delivered in December of 1898, just before the C&S emerged from the receiverships.  The only legible car number is C&S 4217, at the left frame, still in its factory paint and lettering. The coal car to the right, next to the box car, has been re-lettered into the Colorado Road scheme. The two cars on the spur in the foreground also carry factory lettering.

The box car at the right frame is C&S 7677, one of the 30-foot, 20-ton Peninsular box cars built for the DSP&P in 1884. On the C&S these cars were assigned numbers 7616-7721, they remained in service until the mid-19teens.
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If any one has other thoughts or see obvious screw ups in my thinking, please post them.

[Chris Walker]

Jim.

My eyes put the Westernmost Boxcar at #7600; how does that impact your appraisal?

[Jim Courtney]

Hey Chris,

Ron Rudnick's roster shows C&S 7554-7615 as being another group of Kansas Central UP-built 27-foot boxcars, transferred to the DL&G (numbers 24600-24664). I missed that line of the all time car roster. My aging eyes are having trouble with the tiny print of that table.

So, if 7600, there is no mystery after all. I will edit the original post.

[Keith Hayes]

I think the boxcar on the left could also be 7060 or 7660.

7600 seems the best fit given the roster information. I put low odds on a stock car being rebuilt as a box car, but 'never say never.'

[Jim Courtney]

Hey Keith,

C&S 7060 is out. C&S boxcar numbering starts at 7200, for the oldest 24-foot CC cars.

But 7660 has merit. That would make it one of the Peninsular 30-foot, 20-ton cars of 1884. C&S numbers for that series of cars is 7616-7721. Comparing the two cars, if indeed 25147 is a 27-foot ex-KC car, the car on the left appears a tad longer and taller, though the perspective skews things. To me the transoms on the trucks under the two cars look different, the UPD&G lettered car having taller transoms, like the "type C" 14 ton trucks (also present on the car at the right frame). Also, look at the lower corner irons--the UPD&G car has the square poling pocket on the sides (a UP-built spotting feature), while the car to the left has none, a feature of the Peninsular cars.




So, I'm now leaning toward your suggestion of 7660 as the number of the "mystery" car. But my lyin' eyes keep seeing "7000".

[Chris Walker]

Well Keith,  7660 was a thought but I wasn't anywhere certain until I had another squint at it, and I'm leaning that way now, there's just too much upper left slant on the middle pair.

I can't do any better than this for you, Jim.  My eyesight has crested the grade a few miles back.  

[Chris Walker]

Another one for you Jim....

[Jim Courtney]

You rock, Chris!!

This is the best photo of an 1883 coal car that I've ever seen.

When I built up my two CW 1883 coal cars, there were some detail questions that I was unsure of. You're photo confirms that I pretty much guessed correctly.

I hate it when I work for months on a model, then when complete, a photo shows up showing all the things that I did wrong . . .

[South Park]

  That's why God gave us fire, Jim.  Burn it and start over !  

[drgwcs]

Jim Courtney wrote

You rock, Chris!!

This is the best photo of an 1883 coal car that I've ever seen.

When I built up my two CW 1883 coal cars, there were some detail questions that I was unsure of. You're photo confirms that I pretty much guessed correctly.

I hate it when I work for months on a model, then when complete, a photo shows up showing all the things that I did wrong . . .

I'm a little surprised that more people do not realize that principle- "Detail photos will show up the week after you complete your model to show you what you did wrong"
That it is in Murphy's Laws of Model Railroading Section two subsection three- right after "visitors will trigger a short in the wiring"  

Seriously though- that happened twice while I was building Blackhawk. Once the literal day after. One error didn't really show on the layout (It was on the other side by the backdrop) and I have not corrected the other one with a window location. Plus I found out I have a couple of structures that were demolished a little before my time frame- they are staying. Oh well.
Jim Curran

[Lee Gustafson]

Jim,

That is the model version of “build it and the photos will appear!” 🥴

Lee Gustafson

[Jim Courtney]

“build it and the photos will appear!”

That is why I model the C&S in a parallel but slightly different universe, "T=2.0". All the same things happen in the same sequence, but the timing is a bit different.

And S.P., rather than fire, I use a black plastic trash bag.

[Dave Eggleston]

Jim Courtney wrote

And S.P., rather than fire, I use a black plastic trash bag.

Just detruck it, turn it over and place resting in a mess down a grade's slope: the result of a derailment.

[Chris Walker]

Dave Eggleston wrote

Just detruck it, turn it over and place resting in a mess down a grade's slope: the result of a derailment.

I turned mine end over end,  dumping out the load whilst rotating 360 degrees, and coming to rest upright in a tree.    Ya don't believe me, eh!

[Chris Walker]

Jim, and others......1902 t'was a very busy time, and during the Winter months as well.





and 1909 vs 1908 February Shipments.....
 

[Chris Walker]

Interesting clippings came across by accident.  Not certain about 50Ton cars to boot: A Reporter mistake perhaps?

[Chris Walker]

When modelling T-o-C: no freight trains today.