C&S markers

[Keith Hayes]

Derrell was working on my model of 74 years ago.  He remarked that the marker lights were odd.

I think these are D&RG/RGS markers, and were not changed out on the C&S models of this locomotive. Since I got 75 out, I thought to check, and it has a closer match.

These are larger than the markers on the Overland models, though.

The long post on #70s tender, and all the close-ups got me to wondering what kind of markerS hung on the tender?

I think one of the 70 photos provides a clue. These are hangers for hand lamps that are on the deck of the oil bunker in one image.

Rick, Mike, Derrell, am I  correct?

[Mike Trent]

Keith,

I think those "odd" classification lights on #74 look pretty much right for #74. In fact, they look just like #75's except the shop removed the old oil vent. Those lights don't look like anybody else's lights.


The markers that PSC makes in 1/4" are much like what you see on your #60. They used that style on both the rear and class lights, and they look fine. I used them front and rear on my #75, and also used that style on the rear of Rotary #09200.

The classification lights on the OMI B-4-E's and B-3-C's look impossibly small, but they are quite similar to prototype photos, and I have not changed any of mine.

Some of the bracket hangers on the rear had an attachment much like a miniature inverted pitchfork, but those are usually only on one side. #74 has one on it's right side. It had not occurred to me that these would be great for hanging a lantern, but I'll bet you are right. #71 should also have one like that on the right side. Mine does. And so does my #6. They could have hung a lantern up there to help with attaching air hoses or lining up couplers.

OMI included that detail on some of the engines, and I was able to keep a spare for #74.  

[Keith Hayes]

Perhaps Upside Down will oblige us with some of his wonderful enlarged photos?

[Derrell Poole]

No. 74 in the real world.

You know, I had PBL Sn3 74 in my hands and by comparison to every OMI C&S engine I have - about 20- of them those markers were not correct. I've never seen modern C&S engines with hand grabs on them. furthermore they were grossly oversized and they did not have the correct lense in them. It is very difficult, I'll grant you, to tell from the photo Keith posted.

Trust me, Keith - they are the wrong lamps. Now 75s lamps do look correct - more or less - altho still oversized - IF they are the same as 76's lamps as seen thus;

[Derrell Poole]

If the 75's lamps are suppose to look like 76's lamps then the castings on the PBL engine still lacks the correct character of the vent on top of the lamps. No. 60's lamps are correct ant these should be on the 74. No. 75s lamps on the model look like baby bottles with bug-eyes in them!

[Chris Walker]

Keith Hayes wrote

Perhaps Upside Down will oblige us with some of his wonderful enlarged photos?

Apparently I do requests now haha!!
Just so we are clear on what you want, I was understanding that they were Classification lights on the Locomotives and Markers were hung on the rear of light locomotives or the caboose at the rear of the train.  Fortunately for me, NZR didn't have class lights, carried Sidelamps on the rear with a Taillamp on light Locos and the rear of all trains.  A whole lot clearer eh!


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42331/rv/singleitem

Running light in the daytime could carry flags in place of lamps as well.


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42338/rv/singleitem/rec/6

Class lights, and  Marker Lamps, in this case the #71 must have run light over to assist the scrap train on the grade.

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42217/rv/singleitem

and finally, probably non-regulation storage of Markerlamps.

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42215/rv/singleitem/rec/32

[Mike Trent]

Great pics Chris.

Is that last one #73? It's bunker was 12" shorter in length than #71's.

Here is a picture of #74's marker brackets. There had previously been one centered in the middle but had apparently been broken off and removed, with only three rivets remaining to mark where it had once been.

[Derrell Poole]

And all of these photos and noise changes the PBL faux pas how?....

[Keith Hayes]

All I really wanted to know was how the tender markers hung On the bracket. You all answered that question clearly,  and Derrell I will give the markers on 74 the stink eye whenever I look at em.

[Chris Walker]

Mike Trent wrote

Is that last one #73? It's bunker was 12" shorter in length than #71's.

Mike,

that's the #58, with the non-reg stored Markers.  I figure the C&S Enginemen did have a book of instructions pertaining to such requirements for their guidance and this was just an overlooked temporary repository.

[Rick Steele]

Chris,

I love the photo of 58 and 71. In case nobody realized it, the rear end markers on 71 were jury-rigged from Switch Stand Marker Lamps. Switchstand lamps were the only lamps made by Adlake or Handlan-Buck that I know of with a bottom mounting hole and the flared bottom with the square mounting bracket cast in the center of it.

This cobbled together solution would work great for the C&S as they used the Red/Green globe type lamps. The D&RGW could never have done this since they had changed to Amber markers instead of the red.

Rick

[Chris Walker]

I had thought they were Switchlamps, the caboose lamps have a projecting "T" ended tongue that slots into the brackets, I forgot to point out that this photo of the scraptrain on Boreas would be under the control of the scrapper, the locomotives and track leased and I guess they were getting slack on Railroading Rules.  I'd punt the Enginemen were used to following the rules and therefore scrounged up those lamps for the purpose shown.  Obviously they didn't worry too much about taking them down like they would have, if a Road Foreman was around.

An aside to that, since I'm not all that up on all your rules, had enough of that over the years, any idea why numerous photo's of double-headers show both locos carrying the white flags?  Was this a requirement that both Helper and Road Loco displayed signals?  as it has been many a year since that that stuff was written up in the Gazette.

[Keith Hayes]

Chris,  I will second for a posting on rules from a C&S  employee timetable. I have kept my eyes peeled for one in a CRRM auction catalog for naught.

[Chris Walker]

Had to refresh my memory for a few minutes, Rick Steele wrote up Rear-end and Head-end signals in the 1984 Gazette issues May/Jun and Jul/Aug respectively.  He also went on to describe the Station paperwork in the subsequent issues.  
All worth a recap here if Rick has no life.

[Mike Trent]

Rear end markers were Red to the rear, green to the side and front. Not sure if the tender markers displayed green to the sides, but probably, as that was the rule.

In daylight, flags would be used as they were required gear. Or, women's underwear, as was done at least once, according to one of Forest Crossen's interviews in his "Western Yesterdays" series.

Classification lights would almost always appear clear unless illuminated with green glass rotated inside to display green. Clear would mean "Extra", which we now know all freight movements on the C&S narrow gauge were in later years.

If I recall correctly for the classification lights, green designated the first section of a train with a second section following. The second section would display clear.

For what it's worth, "green" lenses on an oil lamp are actually blue. They appear green only when illuminated.

And  Keith, don't worry about 74's Class lights. They are fine. Good luck finding a pair that looks more like what you see in various photos. They already do, really. It's #75's with those top vents that would be unusual in the 30's. Like Rick points out above, the C&S wasn't always too particular about how stuff was cobbled up or repaired in the tin shop. Some of them look pretty home made.

[Rick Steele]

Just a small correction. White, as in the white flags, indicate an extra movement. If the signals were "Clear" (as in unlit), it was a scheduled train running on timetable time and direction.

Chris, let me find the Gazette article and drawings and I'll repost it here, probably as a .pdf file in the files area.

Rick

[Derrell Poole]

Well if all you wanted was info on the tender markers then maybe you should not have said anything about what I said. I am right of course - not because I said so but because the evidence is there for anyone who seeks to find. People who are so full of themselves that they make off-handed comments without backing up what they say do nothing for the rest of us. When they contradict those who TAKE the G-D time to find out - well that just pisses me off. Then it's no longer about the details but the sacredness of the Truth and the privilege of being RIGHT!!

[Derrell Poole]

You are an amazing, Mike. You plaster all over this blog how you rebuilt an OMI model to correct it and then you tell a ferllow enthusiast of this prototype that his incorrect lamps are "fine". Maybe the hypocracy of this slips by most reader and frankly I dismiss such things unless you've shoved them in my face.

You don't know what the lamps on PBL C&S 74 look like! That is the only logical explanation that isn't outright dismissive of what Keith may or may not find important. Well. Here is what they look like;



So you tell me - no; tell Keith. Again. The lamps on his model are "fine". And then tell us all again, how much attention you pay to details on your models!

It's up to Keith to decide the lamps are okay. You and I - we should just tell the truth!

BTW I have at least 6 pair of the CORRECT marker lamps that need only be adapted to the unique B-4F brackets. But if that is what Keith wants maybe you would be so good as to install them on his model for him.

[Chris Walker]

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42452/rv/singleitem/rec/2


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42436/rv/singleitem/rec/3


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42435/rv/singleitem/rec/2


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42415/rv/singleitem/rec/2


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42417/rv/singleitem/rec/3


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42397/rv/singleitem/rec/9

Derrell Poole wrote

I've never seen modern C&S engines with hand grabs on them.

This caught my fancy as I was just looking at one picture taken at Morse Bros. I'm taking you to mean by "Modern", the last decade and also of the big power #74-76 only.

I offer these "modern" images, the last days of 75 and 76 have the handles on the classlights, I presume because they are only wire that makes them hard to see.   Strangely I found one of 75 without yet she regressed to handles at Morse.  Those ones taken at Morse Bros, still appear to be electrically wired in, not as if they would swap over classlights for older types at that time, why would they, given the bent visors I'd say swapped lights wouldn't be re-connected?

As for the 74 in later years, no handles, a dead cert!  

To get the info on the DPL dates, click my photo links then click the "close x" at the topright of the image page.

[Mike Trent]

Oops. You are right, Derrel. I blew it on those markers. I was looking at the shape of them and missed that they had radius lenses.

I was wrong, thanks for pointing that out.  Obviously PBL missed that, and Keith will need to fix it.