C&S #22

[Jerry Kitts]

Hey Guys:

I have been lurking and now its time for a question or two. I have a model of #21/22 and want to make it into a good #22.

I want to do the engine around 1917 before the Bear Trap Stack or after the addition, sort of depends on finding enough information to go either way.

I think with the Bear Trap will be the easiest, but I see complications even with that. Looking at page 102 of the Colorado Rail Annual #12 there is a photo by Richard B Jackson taken in 1925 that looks like #22 is wearing #21's cab or even perhaps the boiler too. Also the round patch on the tender has disappeared, perhaps it has #21's tender? After #21 was scrapped did #22 get a number of parts from #21 or is it a case of #21 becoming #22 using 22"s running gear?

[Mike Trent]

Jerry, what scale and model do you have?

[Rick Steele]

Oh my Lord, Jerry Kitts....

Hi Jer, how are you and Scott?

You still owe me an Idaho Springs Depot kit....

Rick

[Jerry Kitts]

Hi Mike,

Well I know its a Sn3 discussion group and I model in On3. The point is if the group does not know the answer to my question I have no idea were to look. I am undertaking the rebuilding of a 1964 On3 PFM version of the #22. Well actually PFM said 21 or 22, pretty hard to be both. Its closest in my opinion to 22.

Jerry

On Mar 7, 2015, at 6:35 PM, Mike Trent [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum] wrote:

Jerry, what scale and model do you have?

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[Jerry Kitts]

Hey Rick,

We are just fine.

I am a bit confused on how I owe you a Idaho Springs Depot Kit? We  
never offered one.

We did fuss about for a long time with the Jefferson Depot. After we  
made one end wall in quarter inch scale and showed it off at a couple  
of shows we pretty much gave up. No one wanted to even look at it. I  
guess the whole world is in Sn3? I do remember measuring the  
Jefferson depot when the sun went down and having a steel 100'  
measuring tape change by better than an inch in the cold that followed.

Hey but if we ever make the kit I will be happy to send one your way.

Jerry


On Mar 7, 2015, at 8:25 PM, Rick Steele [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum]  
wrote:

> Oh my Lord, Jerry Kitts....
>
> Hi Jer, how are you and Scott?
>
> You still owe me an Idaho Springs Depot kit....
>
> Rick
>

[Chris Walker]

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42200/rv/singleitem/rec/1



http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42509/rv/singleitem/rec/1



http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42202/rv/singleitem/rec/1



http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42516/rv/singleitem/rec/1

[Mike Trent]

Hi Jerry, no the whole world hasn't gone Sn3, but a lot of us old C&S guys like hanging out here even if we model in odd scales like On3.

I am actually backdating one of those old PFM models to 1900. As not only the #22 and #21 were very similar, so were they to #12 and #13. All were totally rebuilt by the UP.

You are correct that they used a lot of detail from #22 for the model, but the reason the box says "C&S 2-6-0" is because it can be used for any of the four of those engines. It remains as one of the very best models ever made from that time.

[Lee Gustafson]

Hi Jerry,

Best wishes to you, Scott and the family. Glad to have you here. Love to see the PFM C&S #22 when you finish it. If you ever do the Jefferson depot I'll take one.

Lee Gustafson

[Rick Steele]

Hi Jer,

Yup, you're right, it was Jefferson. Idaho Springs was somebody else. Oh Well, I guess I'll just have to cut one myself.

Are you still in Northern California?

The one thing that always struck me about the 21 and 22 was that it looks like the 21 never had its stack cut down to accept the Ridgway spark arrestor like the rest of the C&S Locomotives did. I wonder if this caused clearance problems at places like Como Roundhouse after the Ridgway was applied. I agree with Mike on the "Universality" of the PFM 2-6-0's whether it was in O or HO scale. I've hacked up my fair share of the PFM 2-6-0's and their 2-8-0's also. As an HOer I always liked hacking away on the old Lambert 2-6-0's as well.

Rick

[Jerry Kitts]

Hello Chris,

Thank you for the photos. 

Jerry right side up in California

On Mar 7, 2015, at 11:53 PM, Chris Walker [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum] wrote:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42200/rv/singleitem/rec/1



http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42509/rv/singleitem/rec/1



http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42202/rv/singleitem/rec/1



http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42516/rv/singleitem/rec/1

[Jerry Kitts]

Well Mike it good hear that the world has not made the switch to Sn3.  
I must admit I did try it for a while. Too much stuff for that other  
Colorado road and very little on the C&S. Although I guess there are  
still a number of the Overland C&S engines show up on eBay to make it  
interesting.

I guess I qualify as one of the old guys C&S or otherwise. Too much  
stuff and interest in quarter inch to change scales as often as one  
of my friends on this group does.




This is one of my questions from last night. The photo appears in two  
books I have. I scanned this one from C&Sng by Mallory Ferrell page  
89. The photo is credited to Stanley Jackson. The same photo was used  
in the Colorado Rail Annual #12 on page 102 and credited to Richard  
B. Jackson. Both agree that the photo was taken in 1925 on the  
Morrison Branch.

The date is the important part. 1925 after #21 was scrapped. The cab  
in-particular looks like #21's cab to me. The windows are not the  
same size as the #22 and line between the roof and side seem to match  
up to 21. It also looks like 21's tender. That other Colorado road  
swapped tenders all the time, which got a bit crazy when I was custom  
painting. Just wondering if I have been starring at photos too long  
or if someone knows if parts of 21 and 22 were swapped around after  
21 was scrapped?

In looking at photos yesterday I did mention to my son that it looked  
like #13 was also close to model.




This is what I really want to do. I can live with the drivers being  
an inch and half bigger than they should be. I have not really given  
it a hard look to see how much I would have to change to make #12 or  
#13. It would not be the first time I have shortened a smoke box.

Searching for information is often as much fun as building a model.




Given the state my model arrived in, how much damage could I do?

Jerry

On Mar 8, 2015, at 4:14 AM, Mike Trent [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum]  
wrote:

> Hi Jerry, no the whole world hasn't gone Sn3, but a lot of us old  
> C&S guys like hanging out here even if we model in odd scales like  
> On3.
>
> I am actually backdating one of those old PFM models to 1900. As  
> not only the #22 and #21 were very similar, so were they to #12 and  
> #13. All were totally rebuilt by the UP.
>
> You are correct that they used a lot of detail from #22 for the  
> model, but the reason the box says "C&S 2-6-0" is because it can be  
> used for any of the four of those engines. It remains as one of the  
> very best models ever made from that time.

[Jerry Kitts]

Hi Lee,

The question is how to stop me from sending photos? Seriously I would  
like if I can find enough photos or information to make a really good  
rebuild to perhaps do a step by step here or some place. I think the  
model has a ton of potential.

Jerry

On Mar 8, 2015, at 5:21 AM, Lee Gustafson [via C&Sn3 Discussion  
Forum] wrote:

> Hi Jerry,
>
> Best wishes to you, Scott and the family. Glad to have you here.  
> Love to see the PFM C&S #22 when you finish it. If you ever do the  
> Jefferson depot I'll take one.
>
> Lee Gustafson

[Jerry Kitts]

Rick.

This August we will have been here in Wonderful Willits for 30 years.  
We really don't like moving.

Jerry

[Mallory Hope Ferrell]

FYI: Here are a couple of photos of my On3 models of C&S #21 and #22. The #21 started out as a very inexpensive Bachmann On30 "Christmas Loco" and required extensive rebuilding, including new Grandt Line sideframes and "gobs" of PSC brass parts. The #22 is a rebuilt PFM model, with added detail. Both locomotives have PFM sound (speakers in tender) and real (crushed) C&S coal loads that I picked-up on Trout Creek Pass. They have Ridgway "Beartrap Stacks" and are modeled and weathered for the early 1920s.

[Chris Walker]

Glad to help a name with which I am familiar {:))  I like your avatar, mine is my first day driving of the narrow-gauge version, can you see that kid's milewide smile?
It was Joe Crea that brought the #21/#22 to the fore way back in '83-84.

Has anyone else besides Jerry noticed that the Morrison photo of #22 by R.B.Jackson shows quite clearly that the shorter #21's Tender is now behind the #22?

[Darel Leedy]

Very nice job on the two locos Mal. I had started on the Bachman mogul also. I didn't finish it and I don't know where it ended up (Doug?).
Thanks for posting them!

[Todd Hackett]

Mike Trent wrote

...As not only the #22 and #21 were very similar, so were they to #12 and #13...

Don't forget that #21 and #22 were heavily rebuilt Brooks, while #12 and #13 were Cookes that didn't get the major rebuilds of the B3As. When I built an On3 model of #12, I started from a Balboa DSP&P Cooke #71. While the Cooke model was closer to #12, the #21 and #22 were similar enough that I made a reasonable facsimile of a DSP&P Cooke by back-dating an HOn2 PMF #21/22. I think I did the HOn3 backdate in the early 1980s, and the On3 modernization in the late 1980s.

I know Jerry is more interested in #22, but here are a couple of photos of #21 before the beartrap. The first is an Otto Perry photo dated 1916:


The other is from a postcard. The people are identified as Sam Speas (left - engineer), Dave Sullivan (center - fireman), and Tom St. John (conductor):

[Jerry Kitts]

Guys,

I do thank everyone that has helped so far.

I have a question about the round patches on the tender of #22. Probably not patches at all as they are in the same position and size on both sides of the tender. I have not noticed them on other C&S tenders.

[Derrell Poole]

When you weather your engine, Jerry, weather it like Todd's photo....

deeee-licious!

Are the domes all black on the 21?

[Derrell Poole]

Is the roof red (RED?!) on this engine?