C&S #22

[Jerry Kitts]

Shorter Darrell,

Your asking me what colors are on a C&S engine?

Not any thoughts on weathering or painting yet, still need to glue  
all back together yet.

I got side tracked with Pancake stacks and pre-1900 yesterday. I  
found stripes on some domes. Still plowing through my books and  
begging for information on 22.

Jerry


On Mar 9, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Derrell Poole [via C&Sn3 Discussion  
Forum] wrote:

> When you weather your engine, Jerry, weather it like Todd's photo....
>
> deeee-licious!
>
> Are the domes all black on the 21?

[Keith Hayes]

I believe it is the lighting of the model. It is the same environmental effect which causes narrow gauge D&RGW boilers to appear green. Arf!

[Derrell Poole]

No, no, no, Keith. Mal's engine. It looks like the roof is red. RED!!!

[Keith Hayes]

That's what I'm talking about d.

[Derrell Poole]

Well maybe, Keith. But how 'bout if Mal clarifies that - since we can't be certain from the photo. Which is why I asked.

[Derrell Poole]

Look folks; Mal Ferrell is recognized as some kind of "authority" on the C&S. Of course, like any modeler, he is perfectly at liberty to do with his models as he wishes. But with this "status" comes the responsibility of proper presentation from a history stand point. If this roof is not red the issue is over. But someone who is looking to "us" for guidance may look at this photo and come to the conclusion that the C&S painted the roofs of some of their ng locos RED. If they did do that we need the proof that they did and this is Mal's opportunity to make that case - if it needs to be made. Otherwise either clarify that this is just a photo aberration or that, while incorrect, Mal wanted to paint the roof red preference to his personal satisfaction.

[Darel Leedy]

Sorry d. I've looked at that photo on four different large monitors in my office and still do not see any red. But Mal is welcome to clarify.

[Robert McFarland]

Doesn't look red to me -looks weathered black.The pinkish appearence  comes from the lighting when the photograph was taken.

[Chris Walker]

Anyone care to explain away this appearance, no-one commented on it after I posted the pic so I guess it is just dirt......I wonder


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42202/rv/singleitem/rec/1

[Jeff Young]

Is the top panel glazed (and we’re looking through to something on the tender wall), or is the top panel wood?  If wood, it seems awfully regular to just be dirt….

Jeff.

On 10 Mar 2015, at 19:41, Chris Walker [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Anyone care to explain away this appearance, no-one commented on it after I posted the pic so I guess it is just dirt......I wonder


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42202/rv/singleitem/rec/1

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NAML

[Jerry Kitts]

Guys:

I am wondering if there is a decent drawing of the #22 any place that a guy could get his hands on it? I want to rebuild the the tender floor and frame as the model is pretty bland.

[Chris Walker]

Joe Crea drew the #22 in JAN/FEB 1985 NG&SL Gazette.

[Chris Walker]

Actually I was just meaning the Waterleg of the Tank, but the cabdoor also warrants comment.  The C&S enginemen certainly didn't keep their cab glass clean I notice.  Young fellers in steam days here started as cleaners and learned the job from there sitting their Fireman's (Boiler Marine Cert) tickets and then on to Enginedrivers.  Loco cabs got a thorough wiping down before going out.

[Doug Heitkamp]

Red roof - Naw, just the way the picture came out when enlarged. Looks like the pictures were scanned from a printed magazine? and the RGB dots show.

Chris - Looks like a nice coating of mud/water spray on the tender. Pretty heavy weathering - they probably need to go a bit easier with the airbrush next time.

Doug

[Derrell Poole]

my, my, my, - MY!!!!!!

How many G-D'ed  MAL FERRELLS  are there on this sight?! WHO among you have actually seen the model in person? Huh!?

ALL of you are speculating!

I'M just asking the horse MOUTH!!!!!!! It looks red to me. So I'm asking for a QUALIFIED answer - and NO MORE!

WHO among you are QUALIFIED! Do you see my screen? Are you holding the model in hand? HOW are any of you but the REAL Mal Ferrell qualified to answer my question?!

[Jerry Kitts]

Hello Chris and Company,

I pulled out the Joe Crea drawing this morning. The drawing is modified to fit a LGB drive, so drivers spacing is off, and who knows what else? The bottom line there is almost nothing I use on the drawing. There is no real details of the tender deck or frame which is were I wanted to start rebuilding.

Is there a drawing of any of the Brooks tenders that would at least suggest the correct framing for the tender? Is the best I can hope for just to follow what Baldwin did for a C-16 tender frame? I do know what Baldwin did, but that seems almost a lame as what PFM did with their frame which was almost nothing when it comes to details.

I can see in photos that the tender floor is made up of slates or boards that are spaced rather far apart and then a metal piece wrapped around the outside edge. I assume (which is always bad) that at least in the coal bunker there is a metal covering over the floor or are there boards between the wide spaced boards?

I will be doing my best to include all the piping on my model. I know many modelers don't bother with such things for various reasons. I like to do the plumbing on all of my models even when it can not be seen on the layout.

I have meet Joe on a few occasions and think he is a pretty talented modeler. I am not putting him or his drawing down, it is simply not a scale drawing, but a good representation of the model he made. There always seems to be a temptation with email that I am being mean spirited or putting someone down, not the case here at all.

[Mike Trent]

Jerry, that drawing of #22 was made in conjunction with a "cutaway" drawing he made for inclusion in "Goin Railroading" at my request, to show how a steam locomotive operates as a compliment to Margi Coel's narrative from her Dad. As you note, it is not and was never intended to be a scale rendering of the actual #22, but was rather a scale rendering for publication in the Gazette of his #22, built on an LGB mechanism which was a companion model to his Jefferson Depot.

[Jerry Kitts]

Mike,

Then do we know what the UP did to the tender? Maybe Mr. Steel has  
some idea if the UP has any drawings that we could get a copy of? Or  
perhaps a book on Kanas narrow gauge as rebuilt by the UP before  
moving to Colorado? I know it sounds stupid but you never know were  
some plans might turn up.

My intention for my drawing besides helping me understand the engine  
and make a good model is that I will post it here. My son and I do a  
lot of cad drawing so I expect to post a decent drawing if I can find  
something to work from. I would like give something back to the group  
besides asking a million and one questions.

At this point I can see if I can come up with more information on #13  
that it would be my final choice, even though I started out to make #22.

Jerry

On Mar 11, 2015, at 2:21 PM, Mike Trent [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum]  
wrote:

> Jerry, that drawing of #22 was made in conjunction with a "cutaway"  
> drawing he made for inclusion in "Goin Railroading" at my request,  
> to show how a steam locomotive operates as a compliment to Margi  
> Coel's narrative from her Dad. As you note, it is not and was never  
> intended to be a scale rendering of the actual #22, but was rather  
> a scale rendering for publication in the Gazette of his LGB #22,  
> which he had built with his Jefferson Depot.
>
> Don't be led astray by looking for much detail from Brooks in the  
> C&S years as the UP had completely rebuilt both the two Brooks  
> engines #21 and #22 and the Cooke built #12 and #13 to the extent  
> you can hardly tell them apart.

[Mike Trent]

Jerry, I'd look for any photos which might show the rear end beam which would have bolts where the sills are. there were probably two sills that ran between the end beams to the buffer plate on the front beam. These would have supported the bolsters. Then there were likely two smaller sills. The best way to find information of similar construction would be to find  wreck photos. If you find a view of an upside down tender in the early 1900's, whose too say that isn't just what the #22 was like.

I have noticed that the tender behind #22 in 1900 was shorter than the one in later years.

The PFM model is an interesting hybred of details from various periods. The cab sides are correct to 1900, without the steel plate. Yet it has the extended smokebox and the longer tank of post 1910.

Attached is an "in progress" photo of Rob Smith's circa 1900 #22. Shortened smokebox, McConnell stack, big oil headlight, no air tank between the domes. If nothing else, you'll get a kick out of it. Doesn't really bear much resemblance to the later #22, and yet it does.

[Robert McFarland]

Check the photos on 351 and 365 of the DSP&P Pictorial.Thats a beautiful well built model.Don't forget the cab roof clerestory and the coal  board extensions on the tender.