Beginner questions

[MontanaMax]

I just acquired a Tomalco C-16 2-8-0 in Sn3 scale and intend to build a small logging layout for this engine.  Years ago I built some trackwork in HO using code 100 but am not sure what code to use now.  The planned layout is relatively small (12' x 4') so I want to use some radius minimums to pack as much in as I can.  Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks,
Walt Max
Missoula, MT

[MontanaMax]

Well, I probably should have done some proper research before asking this question.  An NMRA work sheet tells me that code 70 was used for the D&RGW.  And some discussion about minimum radii suggests 28" for trouble free operation although supposedly you can go down to 18" for this engine.  Another question I had but didn't ask was tie width and for this railroad, 7' seems reasonable.

Thanks for looking!
Walt Max

[nickgully]

https://www.urbaneagle.com/data/RRrailsizes.html

From the charts an graphs, you can see that in S Scale Code 100 is about 100lb per yard,  Code 70 is about 65 lb per yard and Code 55 is 40 lb per yard.

Logging lines were usually on the light end, so 55 would look nice and light for a small engine in the woods. But there is much more Code 70 out there, and it is good for a starting layout.

-Nick

[MontanaMax]

Thanks for the additional information.  I actually like the idea of using the smaller rail although I do have concerns about how easy it is to work with.  I'm thinking about getting a few lengths and seeing how it goes.

Walt

[Keith Hayes]

Walt, some advice. Use the largest radius you can stand and switches with the largest frogs you can stomach.

Yes, you can construct a layout in Sn3 and use 24" radius curves and #6 turnouts: 30" radius will look better and 36" better still. Sure you are starting with a C-16, but one day a K-28 will catch your eye and it won't run around your tight curves. Likewise, while I settled on turnouts with #6 frogs to get more siding capacity, in retrospect I wish I had decided on #8s instead.

With respect to track, no one answered your tie question. I think the ties were 7' long. You might check the files section to see if there is a folio. You can get pre-cut ties from Fast Tracks, or perhaps PBL. Rail can be code 70, 55 or 40. Dale Krutzer has code 40 on his RGS and it performs well. The good thing about small rail is it does not take long to file the parts down as there just is not that much material. But--and I say this with not much experience with small rail--there is also less tolerance for problems as there is not a lot of rail to keep the flanges between the rails.

You also mention wanting to "pack in as much as you can." If you have not had a layout before, consider starting simple and building from there. I continue to be amazed at the operating challenge of my D&RGW interchange in Leadville. A train arrives from staging and pulls into the depot. I have a runaround track, two facing point industries and two trailing point industries (excluding the smelter job). Arriving and switching out 5-6 cars can occupy more than an hour, and a very enjoyable hour at that. Placerville on the RGS is a popular modeling subject, and I have killed a lot of time switching Placerville on several layouts. I think the layout owners have had a fair degree of satisfaction building models of the place too. If you choose the C&S, consider someplace simple like Buffalo, Maddox, Jefferson, Alma, Dickey, Dillon, Solitude or Romley.

Lastly, many modelers seek a switching puzzle like John Allen's "Timesaver." My name is Keith, and I built a layout based on the Timesaver. Really, I thought it was a good idea too. Several layouts I have operated on have one town based on this plan. I have never found switching the timesaver towns fun: it was designed as a game or puzzle intended to last 30 minutes with 4-5 cars. When my train shows up with 4-5 cars plus what is on the sidings, there just is not enough space to move around.

[MontanaMax]

Keith,

 

First, thanks for your thoughtful comments and suggestions.  For the time being, I’m limited in the available space I have for this layout.  I wrote that my layout would be 4’ deep but have decided I can get away with a 5’ depth which is still pretty tight.  I wasn’t sure about the switch size to use but I think I can manage #6 turnouts.  I ordered some different size rail (from Fast Tracks) to see how I do before making a final decision.

 

My plan is to freshen up my track laying skills and study as much as I can before I start serious construction.  I have never had any experience with serious switching but would like the layout to give me that opportunity.  I’m not familiar with some of the terms you use but you give me some starting points.  More studying.

 

Regarding ties, I came across several references to a December 89 issue of Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette as an excellent resource on all things ties and was able to buy a copy on eBay.  I can’t wait to get started.

 

Walt Max

 

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[Keith Hayes]

Max, PBL flex has ties that are 6'-8" long or thereabouts. Fast Tracks ties are just under 7'-0".

The image shows my D&RGW interchange looking northish. The main is on the left with the siding to the right.

In the foreground on the left is the team track, also the destination for tank car unloading.

Beyond and above the depot on the left is the ore dock for teamster loading: the two platform heights (car deck on one side,  lower onthe other) make this a popular destination for local shippers to transfer items also. The C&S freight depot has three track doors for D&RGW use on the siding.

At the end of the siding on the right is Cloud City Coal, a fuel dealer with a voracious appetite  for gons of coal to keep Leadville residents warm.

The main continues past Cloud City to the Ibex branch, which generates carloads of high grade ore in boxcars and low grade ore in gons; it is also the destination for carloads of lumber and machinery, even groceries for the more remote mines. These are shoved to the end of track beyond the C&S crossing.

Most important is the C&S interchange just to the left of C&S 8 spotted at the City Water spout. This is a 'universal' carload generator, and the two roads trade all sorts.

The main heads out of town to a staging track.

The train enters staging from Salida with 4-6 cars, and can stay busy for an hour or more switching and making up the train for the return trip.

The siding is over 7'-0" long from 8th Street in the foreground to 10th Street beyond the Freight Depot. That is 8 cars capacity if you brake the train for 9th Street; more if you don't. And having the streets adds its own operational challenge that has nothing to do with the track plan.

Quite a lot in not much space, and not very complex.

[MontanaMax]

You really have packed a lot of action into this space.  One of the things that intrigues me about serious model railroaders and their creations is the narrative that goes along with it.  This is new to me.  For years, my trains just went around and around.  But I think it will be fun to immerse myself in a miniature world of models and operations.

 

Since I’m writing, I’ll also tell you about a fun discovery I made this afternoon.  As I’ve said, I bought a C-16 as my first step into Sn3.  But with no track I could only hook some wires to it to make sure it ran.  While doing this I found out that the tender has to be attached for a complete circuit.  On a hunch, I wondered if some old Lionel 0-27 track would work using the center rail and an outside rail.  And it does!

 

Walt Max

 

[Todd A Ferguson]

PBL has code 55 and code 70 flex track and turnouts in Sn3.  There was a sawmill on the RGS that actually used an ex D&RGW 2-8-0 to switch the mill and take cars too and from the RGS interchange.  It is in several books in the RGS, and was near Dolores, CO which is another interesting town on the RGS.  

Black Hawk on the C&S narrow gauge is also an interesting town.  You can do a search on this site to learn more about it too.  I have modeled in Sn3 since the late 1980s so feel free to ask questions.  We can take the discussion to email if you want too...

Best,
Todd

[MontanaMax]

Todd, thanks a lot for your offer of assistance.  Right now I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed with this project but that’s ok.  I was an avid HO enthusiast in the 60s and a lot has changed and there is way more information available.  I need to look into these locations to better understand the possibilities.

 

I’m sure I’ll take you up on your offer.

 

Walt

 

From: Todd A Ferguson [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2021 2:39 PM
To: MontanaMax <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: Beginner questions

 

PBL has code 55 and code 70 flex track and turnouts in Sn3.  There was a sawmill on the RGS that actually used an ex D&RGW 2-8-0 to switch the mill and take cars too and from the RGS interchange.  It is in several books in the RGS, and was near Dolores, CO which is another interesting town on the RGS.  

Black Hawk on the C&S narrow gauge is also an interesting town.  You can do a search on this site to learn more about it too.  I have modeled in Sn3 since the late 1980s so feel free to ask questions.  We can take the discussion to email if you want too...

Best,
Todd

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NAML

[Todd A Ferguson]

Walt, yes it’s a different world... and have been doing model training since 1973.  But you can choose what you want to do... and what technology you want to use or not.  DCC and sound are great and not that hard to implement...

Ask away at your convenience.

Todd

[hidden email]

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 11, 2021, at 5:19 PM, MontanaMax [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:



Todd, thanks a lot for your offer of assistance.  Right now I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed with this project but that’s ok.  I was an avid HO enthusiast in the 60s and a lot has changed and there is way more information available.  I need to look into these locations to better understand the possibilities.

 

I’m sure I’ll take you up on your offer.

 

Walt

 

From: Todd A Ferguson [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2021 2:39 PM
To: MontanaMax <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: Beginner questions

 

PBL has code 55 and code 70 flex track and turnouts in Sn3.  There was a sawmill on the RGS that actually used an ex D&RGW 2-8-0 to switch the mill and take cars too and from the RGS interchange.  It is in several books in the RGS, and was near Dolores, CO which is another interesting town on the RGS.  

Black Hawk on the C&S narrow gauge is also an interesting town.  You can do a search on this site to learn more about it too.  I have modeled in Sn3 since the late 1980s so feel free to ask questions.  We can take the discussion to email if you want too...

Best,
Todd

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NAML

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[nedsn3]

Walt- Welcome. A Tomalco C-16 was my first Sn3 loco. Swede would be very happy. Have fun.
Ned

[MontanaMax]

Thanks, Ned.  My order for rail, etc from Fast Tracks just arrived yesterday.  I picked up a pair of spiking plyers today.  And tomorrow I’ll lay some track to watch my C-16 roll!

Walt

 

From: nedsn3 [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2021 9:33 PM
To: MontanaMax <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Beginner questions

 

Walt- Welcome. A Tomalco C-16 was my first Sn3 loco. Swede would be very happy. Have fun.
Ned

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NAML

[Todd A Ferguson]

Do you have an Sn3 NMRA gauge.  Good thing to have...

Todd 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 20, 2021, at 12:25 AM, MontanaMax [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:



Thanks, Ned.  My order for rail, etc from Fast Tracks just arrived yesterday.  I picked up a pair of spiking plyers today.  And tomorrow I’ll lay some track to watch my C-16 roll!

Walt

 

From: nedsn3 [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2021 9:33 PM
To: MontanaMax <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Beginner questions

 

Walt- Welcome. A Tomalco C-16 was my first Sn3 loco. Swede would be very happy. Have fun.
Ned

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NAML

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[MontanaMax]

I do.  I also have some Fast Track Trifecta Track Gauges.  And a MR booklet on track laying.  Wish me luck!

 

From: Todd A Ferguson [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2021 3:29 AM
To: MontanaMax <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Beginner questions

 

Do you have an Sn3 NMRA gauge.  Good thing to have...

 

Todd 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 20, 2021, at 12:25 AM, MontanaMax [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:



Thanks, Ned.  My order for rail, etc from Fast Tracks just arrived yesterday.  I picked up a pair of spiking plyers today.  And tomorrow I’ll lay some track to watch my C-16 roll!

Walt

 

From: nedsn3 [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2021 9:33 PM
To: MontanaMax <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Beginner questions

 

Walt- Welcome. A Tomalco C-16 was my first Sn3 loco. Swede would be very happy. Have fun.
Ned

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NAML

 

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[Todd A Ferguson]

With regard to ties...RGS used 8x8” ties 6 feet and later 6’6” long.  This is convenient in S scale as 1/8x1/8” strip can be used...  I believe the C&S used 6”x6” ties with the same lengths as the RGS.  Sometimes slightly wider ties were used on turnouts.  The C&S also seemed to have more stub switches that lasted longer than in the other Colorado roads.

There are documents in the Files section here that show dimensions for turnouts.  And there is a set of information on layout and building of stub switches.  Stub switches are easier to build than point switches.  There is a guide to building stub switches on the FastTracks website too...

Todd

[MontanaMax]

Thanks, Todd, for the information.  I am intending to use the FastTracks template and tools to build my switches.  Although some have recommended #6 turnouts, I’m inclined to go with #4 given my space constraints.  But, I’m still thinking it over.

 

Walt

 

From: Todd A Ferguson [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2021 3:03 PM
To: MontanaMax <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: Beginner questions

 

With regard to ties...RGS used 8x8” ties 6 feet and later 6’6” long.  This is convenient in S scale as 1/8x1/8” strip can be used...  I believe the C&S used 6”x6” ties with the same lengths as the RGS.  Sometimes slightly wider ties were used on turnouts.  The C&S also seemed to have more stub switches that lasted longer than in the other Colorado roads.

There are documents in the Files section here that show dimensions for turnouts.  And there is a set of information on layout and building of stub switches.  Stub switches are easier to build than point switches.  There is a guide to building stub switches on the FastTracks website too...

Todd

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[Todd A Ferguson]

Think about a number 5 rather than a number 4.  4s are awfully sharp in my opinion.  TSG Media does a series of videos with Jack Burgess on his modeling on YouTube.  He talks in one video about his turnouts and an idea for extending the points if I recall to have better operation on sharp turnouts.  His videos are worth checking out.

Todd

[MontanaMax]

Thanks for the advice.  I didn’t think a 5 vs a 4 would be that different but then I did the math and realized it was 20 or 25% less or more depending how you look at it which does seem to be a significant difference.

 

I also discovered that FastTracks has printable templates for their switches so I’m going to print some #5 and #6 out and see how they fit into my design.

 

From: Todd A Ferguson [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2021 1:34 PM
To: MontanaMax <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: Beginner questions

 

Think about a number 5 rather than a number 4.  4s are awfully sharp in my opinion.  TSG Media does a series of videos with Jack Burgess on his modeling on YouTube.  He talks in one video about his turnouts and an idea for extending the points if I recall to have better operation on sharp turnouts.  His videos are worth checking out.

Todd

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NAML

[Todd A Ferguson]

The other thing I can suggest is to build your turnouts on separate roadbed blocks so they can be built at the workbench and can be reused on another layout or if changes are made to the layout.

You will spend a little time constructing the turnouts but they will work very nicely.  The other thing to consider us if you want hinged points or the points moving as one piece with the closure rails.

I can build a turnout in about an hour with my #9 jig.  You can file points and frog pieces while relaxing or doing some TV watching too.  Like I said think about getting the crossover template and filing jigs.  I would do that if I purchased another jig.  The printed templates are handy for planning and building the odd turnout that doesn’t work with your jig.  

Also think about getting the point frog filing jig for a longer turnout number than your jig.  Get a number 8 if you get a 5 or 6 jig.  That way you can make a larger turnout easily if you need to because you can taper longer point and frog pieces.  And they will work fine in shorter turnouts too.  

And lastly get some ten thousandths diameter solder if you can.  I bought a 1 lb roll on eBay for $10.  That will last me the rest of my life.  If you can’t find it email me and I can send you a sample or 25 feet or so to try out.  One of the keys to beat soldering is a good flux and not using large sized solder for small jobs...  most people just end up a lot of excess solder on the joint.  That either looks bad or makes for a lot of cleanup work.

Todd

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 25, 2021, at 1:27 PM, MontanaMax [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:



Thanks for the advice.  I didn’t think a 5 vs a 4 would be that different but then I did the math and realized it was 20 or 25% less or more depending how you look at it which does seem to be a significant difference.

 

I also discovered that FastTracks has printable templates for their switches so I’m going to print some #5 and #6 out and see how they fit into my design.

 

From: Todd A Ferguson [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2021 1:34 PM
To: MontanaMax <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: Beginner questions

 

Think about a number 5 rather than a number 4.  4s are awfully sharp in my opinion.  TSG Media does a series of videos with Jack Burgess on his modeling on YouTube.  He talks in one video about his turnouts and an idea for extending the points if I recall to have better operation on sharp turnouts.  His videos are worth checking out.

Todd

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NAML

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