Be a patron of the narrow gauge model building arts??

[Jim Courtney]

Bill Meredith and I have been corresponding a bit lately.

With every email, I politely suggest that this DSP&P car or that C&S car would make a great Sn3 kit for Leadville Designs to produce. And with every reply, Bill politely reminds me that Leadville Designs is his bread and butter, keeps a roof over his head, food on the table, etc.,etc.

I was surprised to learn that of all the kits produced to date, the kits with the best revenue stream and return on investment are HOn3 offerings to the RGS folks (and I thought most HOn3 folks just collected Blackstone locomotives and freight cars)! Kind of explains why, out of the blue, he did the AC&F stock cars and the St Charles boxcars as kits in all three scales--the Miller cars!  Gives the RGS guys an alternative to black stock cars and 3000 series boxcars. The TOC versions are after accommodations; once the basic design work is done it is just a matter of burning fewer holes for grab irons and altering a few details.

Bill has just announced a new "Modelers Co-Op Program: https://leadvilledesigns.com/

Basically, if one really, really (really) wants a kit of a specific freight car, one can underwrite the development costs of research  & design (typically $500-$800 per kit). In return the investor gets unlimited kits at a discounted price. Additional kits sold to others yields a commission to the investor. Multiple investors on the same project receive prorated commissions proportionate to their individual investment.

This isn't a new idea . . . Bill Peters used a similar system with his "Advance Reservation" program. If enough "investors" paid the AR price (usually 1/3 of the estimated sales price) the brass project proceeded. When the brass models began to be assembled, another installment of 1/3 was due. At delivery, the final third installment was paid, though discounted (usually $100-$200) if one had been an AR investor. It kept P-B-L from having to front many, many dollars for a project that might or might not sell well.

I can see the merit in Bill's program: Say you're Geoff Hamway, modeling Telluride in the year 1905. You might need 20 or 30 of those D&RG 3000 series boxcars, in the as delivered 1903-1904 configuration, to fill the yards. Or say you're Pat Student, modeling Marshall Pass in the year 1924 -- you could also use 20-30 of those same 3000 series boxcars, pre-1925 rebuild, but with USSA appliance hardware. Nothing to stop Geoff and Pat from jointly collaborating to underwrite the production of the kits. Since the original 3000 series cars were so ubiquitous, they might even break even or turn a profit on their investment, especially if the HOn3 guys like them.

Or take yours truly. I covet about 10 laser kits for the Peninsular 30 foot coal cars:



The tapered side sills and stakes (as well as the circular cutout on the bottom of the original stakes) are a natural for laser cutting. The stakes could also be produced as 3-D prints (to avoid inserting all those 100 and 101 Grandt NBWs in to laser burned holes). A similar, simpler kit for the Peninsular flat cars, leaving off the stakes, sides and ends, could also be produced.



I could underwrite the project in Sn3 and if anyone in HOn3 or On3 wanted to join as investors, the kits could be produced in all three scales. Anyone interested??

Although the C&Sn3 Discussion Forum isn't really a "Historical Society" (though we generate more prototype info than most), there is no reason that the Forum couldn't sponsor a specific C&S / predecessor road car kit once or twice a year. Perhaps straw polls could be conducted to determine the most popular prototype to sponsor and in which scales.

Let's hear everyone's thoughts . . .

[Jeff Young]

I’m in as an underwriter for the Peninsular 30’ coal cars in HOn3.

One condition: all grain runs in the right direction.  I can’t stand laser cut kits with door and window frames with the grain in the wrong direction….

[SteveG]

Hi Jeff,

If you're open to sharing the role, I'd be happy to join you.

Steve Guty
Lakeway, TX

[Jeff Young]

Absolutely.  Like Jim I'm just looking to get some cars, not make a profit. ;)

[Geoff Hamway]

Hi Jim --

I certainly can't fault Bill for asking interested parties to share the risk on marginal projects.  Let's face it -- the "low-hanging fruit" of higher volume freight car projects has already been picked, and it's really hard to predict sales in our little market niches.

Personally, I'm glad Bill is offering this option, for entirely selfish reasons.  I DON'T need 20-30 3000-series boxcars (it's a small yard, Jim!), but I DO need more than I have and more than I have time to kitbash.  I have literally no idea if anyone else will buy any, but this program would save me enough time to be worthwhile to me anyway.  So I'm in ...

Bill has a page on his website where he lists the current projects (https://leadvilledesigns.com/collections/modelers-co-op-dashboard).  You'll see that there IS a project for the 3000-series boxcar, funded for Sn3.  First on the list, though, is the 1885 DSP&P waycar, funded for all 3 scales, which should tickle the fancies of some on this forum.  I'm very interested to see how all this plays out!

Geoff Hamway

P.S.  Sadly, this particular form of arts patronage is NOT tax-deductible!

[Jim Courtney]

OOOPs!

I didn't notice the link to the "Co-Op dashboard". So the 1903 version of the D&RG 3000 boxcars are a go in Sn3!  Great news, I will probably buy a couple of kits for my 1909 interchange roster. I'll be curious if any HOn3 and On3 folks jump in as investors to convert the engineering to their scales, I predict this will be a great selling kit.

As to the DSP&P way cars, I wonder if I should send Bill the link to John Greenly's "The caboose that never was . . ." thread, to thoroughly confuse him as he designs the underframe for the kits???

Nice to see the interest in HOn3 Peninsular coal cars. I'm going to propose that Bill design kits based on Ron Rudnick's drawings in his UPD&G / DL&G Modeling Guide, as the cars looked in the late 1890s, on the eve of the C&S birth:


Rudnick drawing, page 11 of UPD&G/DL&G Modeling Guide

Bob Stears has also published plans for these cars, so there is a fair amount of data already available. The coal cars were numbered 4809-4997 on the C&S, a large number stayed in service until 1916-1924. Some were converted to work cars. As a spin-off kit, I'd also like kits for the 30' Peninsular flat cars, as in the drawing above. These were numbered 1055-1075, many still in service as late as 1923, also used in MOW service, perhaps into the 1930s. Both cars rode on the type-B 20 ton trucks.

Both cars were interchanged to other Colorado roads as well. There are conductor's train book records of C&S 4934, 4961 and 4982 in RGS consists in 1909 and flat car 1068 on the RGS as late as 1920. So Geoff might want one of each, showing up in Telluride.

Any On3 folks want in on this??
_____________________________

To further discussion, what are the most popular C&S / predecessor cars that might be consensus candidates for other Leadville Designs kits?? Collectively, we C&S modeling fans can give Bill some market research for direction in his kit design efforts.
Bill has stated that at least one individual has expressed interest in possibly funding the C&S cinder cars, like these:


Model (On3) by Bob Stears, posted on main blog site.

As Bill pointed out, this could be a start for all the St Charles coal cars. If anyone else wants in on funding this project, contact Bill.

[Bernie Hanlon]

I’ve been a lurker here for a bit, didn’t really have anything to contribute but not long ago I decided to model the C&S around 1905. I saw a lot of kit-bashing and scratch building in my future. One car I need quite a few of are the 1902 coals. I’ve already committed to funding the as delivered version in HOn3. Bill is going to fund the other scales. I just need to confirm the numbers and he’ll get that posted on the site. I couldn’t get into the files to do so. Would any of you all have those numbers. Thanks

[SteveG]

Hi Bernie,

Great to hear! I'd been working on a 3D model of the bolster and underframe for the 1902 cars, and would be happy to donate the ASF bolster model to the effort.
According to the NGP Volume VIII, the series numbers were 4246-4407.

Steve Guty
Lakeway, TX

[Jim Courtney]

Great to hear Bernie!!

If Bill has agreed to do the 1902 coals, he might as well do the 1902 flats as well. Same frame, just needs different stake pockets, could be 3-D printed:






And for the Sn3 version, our own Mike McKenzie has Shapeways prints for the original tapered coal car stakes as well as the later straight stakes: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/slimgauge3d

Don't know if he ever offered them in the other scales.

[Bernie Hanlon]

    Jim, I had a absent minded moment and completely forgot about the flats. I’ll shoot off another email in a bit. I was on the fence about doing the Peninsular gons or the PH1s, saw your post and my decision was made.
    Steve, I don’t know how Bill will be doing the car but maybe you could send him an email with your offer. I’m just paying for it, how it gets done, that’s for him to decide.
     Bernie

[Jim Courtney]

Just got an email back from Mr. Meredith.  The Peninsular 30' coal car / flat car project is a go, will be added to the "Co-Op Dashboard" soon, available in HOn3 and Sn3. 

Still room for an On3 investor . . .

[Keith Hayes]

Darnit Jim, you got ahead of me. I had approached Bill about the 020x cinder cars.

[SteveG]

I'll contact Bill to see if he can make any use of the solid model I have. The 1902 flats and gons could be a single kit with the sides optional, as Jim is suggesting for the Peninsula cars.

[Jim Courtney]

Good for you, Keith. Since you're underwriting the cinder cars, I promise to buy 1 or 2 kits, to help with your commission!

Geoff is right, this is going to be fascinating to watch play out. It occurs to me, that if each of us funded our favorite C&S car, then when the kits are produced it is likely that most of us will buy one or more of them. In effect, we will be collectively as a forum, funding the R&D for the C&S kits that Bill produces . . . certainly OK by me!

[Dave Eggleston]

Items not seen so far on the Leadville Designs list:

1) a more pedestrian passenger car such as the widely-known C&S combine #20.

2) a modification kit for converting boxcars to a variety of known MOW or wrecker work equipment--UPD&G/DL&G or early C&S.

3) a Colorado Central coach such as #2 or #3, pre-C&S.

My interest is primarily pre-C&S but I could see underwriting any of these if there was interest. None would likely be a single-buyer volume purchase situation, more geared to a broader audience to gain volume.

[Jim Courtney]

Hi Dave,

This is the kind of discussion I was hoping for.

Bill Meredith's personal interest is DSP&P c.1888, and he is planning to start a layout by the first of the year. I suspect that he will be designing pre-C&S kits for his own use from time to time and offer them to the general market as well. I know he wants to design kits for the Bowers-Dure coaches and combines with the original roof--a couple continued in that configuration into the late 1890s and first years of the C&S, like this one:




Other pre-C&S projects that might have decent sales potential:

24' CC/UPD&G/C&S coal and flat cars. Especially if Michael York can print appropriate trucks in all scales.
26' Litchfield box cars, coals, flats and the short Tiffany reefers with Litchfield parts. Michael is already working on the type A trucks.
27' UP built box and coal cars. These were produced in Sn3 as resin kits by Cimarron Works many years ago, not in other scales.
30' Peninsular box cars of 1884.

Generally, I plan to build the various house cars of Evergreen styrene, as they are simple in construction and detail. Coal and flat cars are more important (to me) as laser wood kits.

Passenger cars are another issue. Th Co-Op dashboard is indicating Bill is planning an On3 run of the DSP&P Pullmans. I've never thought of Bill's products in terms of passenger cars before, considered him a freight car guy. It will be interesting to see how he handles the roof.

I figured that I could only afford to sponsor one kit and chose the Peninsular coal cars, because there were a lot of them (180) and they lasted until the 19teens. They could be lettered for DSP&P, DL&G and the first 15 year or so of the C&S--some even got the block C&S monogram lettering.

I didn't expect Jeff and Steve to jump in as co-investors. So I feel that I can partner in one more project. Passenger cars are another C&S void in all three scales, pretty much limited to brass RPO 13 and the 70-76 coaches in brass, plus a few resin kits in Sn3. I think that the biggest need and the simplest to design would be head end cars, specifically the two door / side baggage cars, C&S 1 and 2:




If produced in Sn3, this would complete my mid-1920s passenger train when combined with an Overland coach (the RPOs didn't run past Como in the mid 1920s, showed up again when the Leadville passenger went tri-weekly). They wouldn't be useful for a pre-1916 roster, but most folks modeling the C&S focus on the mid-1920s to the 1930s any way.



Of the 4 C&S baggage cars, only numbers 1 and 2 were near identical, excepting the clerestory roof window numbers, so each potential customer could justify buying two, in each of the scales.

Anyone interested in partnering in underwriting baggage cars 1 and 2?

[Mike McKenzie]

I'll join you on the baggage car Jim - Sn3 anyway. What needs to be done and what kind of numbers are we talking about? Regardless I'm in, just cool to be a part of things and to contribute somehow.

Mike

[Jim Courtney]

Hi Mike!!

Bill says underwriting a kit varies from $500.00 to $800.00. For a passenger car, I'd think on the higher end. If we are 50% "investors" in the project, I'd think your cost would be half. From the "Dashboard" it looks like Bill has got most of 2022 filled with projects, so it would be likely first quarter 2023. As I understand it, monies are not due until R&D for the project actually begins.

Before I email Bill about an Sn3 kit for baggage 1 and 2, any HO or O scalers interested??

[Keith Hayes]

Mostly Jim, I was giving you grief.

With the recent spate of kits Bill has released lately, I sent him a message and asked about the cinder cars, and he made the proposal to me. The cost to underwrite the kit seems entirely reasonable and my plan was to do it, but I was waiting until the holidays when I anticipate I will have some, um, extra cash. Also, I mentioned this to another knowledgable local who remarked, "Well you know, <insert name here> has all the research on those cars." Contacting <insert name here> is on my to do list for the end of the year to get Bill a head start.

I has also made mention of the Phase II coals modified as side dump cars. Upon reflection, this is really a matter of a good hinge casting that can be applied to a PVC coal side. A couple of these cars would really help with moving rock to fill the trestle in at Indiana Gulch. It might even motivate me to add the stringer blocks that Chris keeps pestering me about!

I believe Mr. Meredith did the masters for the resin Cimarron kits which included the narrow gauge Pullman in Sn3. I got one for C&S 62 and am saving it to build as it is a fun one to construct and I want to savor it.

I support the C&S Baggage 1 and 2 project--this has been on my to-do list though it had not come to mind. Business car 89/ MOW 089 is also something missing in Sn3. I would not do 20--this car seems an oddball though it is a survivor. The longer Baggage Combine or Mail Combines would be more appropriate and perhaps typical.

Your Penisular project--did any of those cars last to MOW service in the 30s? Jim, a post I think would be most helpful is a visual roster of the various cars. I am of course familia with the Harry Brunk Type/ Phase I-II-III cars, but now we have extended the chronology back to 0 and 00 and of course there are the earlier cars. Having an image to go with the description and roster number would be pretty spiffy.

Just a thought.

[Jim Courtney]

Hey Keith, good to hear your input.

Define: I support the C&S Baggage 1 and 2 project.  Does this mean that you want to join Mike and I and underwrite the Baggage 1 and 2 project, or is this merely a vague promise to buy one if/when Bill produces the kit?? (Just messing with you back).

I agree, the C&S RPO-coaches 40-43 would be high on my list for passenger kits to produce, but it seems to me that the head end baggage cars would be the first priority. Those poor On3 folks never even got a brass RPO 13!

As to the Peninsular coal cars, I doubt many made it past 1916 and the USSA requirements, although Maxwell's roster in The Pictorial Supplement . . .  lists the cars as off the roster in 1923. As to MOW service, Derrell Poole's table in the back of Narrow Gauge Pictorial VIII lists 4889 converted with disposition unknown. Coal 4796 was the only Peninsular coal to be converted to a cinder car along with the St Charles conversions, numbered 0108, scrapped 1938. Maxwell lists MOW car C&S 084 as converted from Peninsular coal 4826 and used as a truck car, scrapped  in 1932.  You'd need to cut down the sides to the single lower board, 12" tall:




Maxwell also lists Peninsular flat car 1070 being converted to C&S tool car number 088, scrapped in 1931:




And then there was this Peninsular coal:


Narrow Gauge Pictorial VIII, page 159.


I have no idea what the car number is, but it served as the boom car for wrecking derrick 099, surviving into the late 1930s. The car still has its gently tapered side sills and some of the original tapered side stakes. All the extra stake pockets seem in place as well. I'll bet that a few other Peninsular coals also survived in MOW service.

Combine 20 wasn't used much in later years because it had been converted to C&S 025 in 1925 for the wrecking crew, and mostly hung out on a siding in Denver, with the derrick. So, you see, you could use a combine number 20 (painted red with a "button herald"), visiting Leadville on the wreck train (need to build that derrick though).




As to your Indiana Gulch trestle, you don't really need to install those extra stringers--just cut them to length, stain them and pile them by the ROW. Pose some of your little people putting one stringer in position . . . it will give Chris something to watch for the next few years.