Be a patron of the narrow gauge model building arts??

[Dave Eggleston]

Jim,

On baggage #1 or #2. What I would really like is an HOn3 kit for their sister UP #1001 (South Park #41, C&S #103) but in original form with end platforms and full roof, ca 1890-94 when running on the GSL&P. Reversing a kit for baggage #1 or #2 to this earlier state seems a massive undertaking and not for the faint-hearted, which stops me in my tracks. My preference is for the South Park version of these "sister" baggage cars (40, 41 and 45) and let folks cut off the platforms and roof to make C&S #1 and #2. Ha! I'm sure that idea would be laughed off this forum!

[Jim Courtney]

Dave, there is nothing ludicrous about any scheme to model the C&S!! Not laughing here!!

Actually, I've been thinking about doing what you just suggested. There is a very nice Shapeways S scale print of the roof for the original DSP&P baggage cars (C&S 1 and 2 in their youth) when they looked like this:



The print has a nice rendition of the broken bull-nose roof: https://www.shapeways.com/product/57THT77E4/sn3-dsp-p-baggage-car-40-roof?optionId=64118231&li=ostatus

I purchased one and with Maxwell's plans, I was planning to cut off the ends of the roof, just where the clerestory roof joined the lower roof. Would be just a scale inch or so off. Then, of course, I'd have to scratch build the baggage car body to fit the roof. It will be a lot simpler to just let Bill Meredith figure out how to do it . . .

[Dave Eggleston]

Here's how 1001 looked on the GSL&P. Note no side windows during the 1890-1894 period.

[Keith Hayes]

I should know better than to quote from memory.

What I corresponded with Bill about is the 0100-01007 cinder cars illustrated earlier in the thread. These are the ones with the peaked ends.

The 020x cars are the side dumps similar to the Phase II cars.

[SteveG]

Looking at Ken Martin's excellent compilation of his C&Sng passenger car drawings, it seems there'd be some opportunities to reuse a lot of kit components across a number of cars, as the overall lengths over end-sills fall into pretty distinct clusters around 34, 40, and 42 feet, and the roofs fall into some clear groupings as well.
I was planning on bashing some of the HO MRGS roofs (with the clever separate clerestory windows) to appropriate lengths for a couple cars not otherwise available, and laser cutting sides as needed. Big problem with the sides is that to get appropriate relief of features (window frames, panes, surrounds, sheathing, chair rail, and fascia) you're talking a multi-layer sandwich of thin laser cut parts, which gets time-intensive in terms of both tooling and material. They are also not great candidates for 3D printing by themselves due to likely warping issues for both filament and resin processes, at least in my limited experience.

Steve Guty
Lakeway, TX

[Jim Courtney]

I just got confirmation from Bill that the C&S baggage cars 1 and 2 are a go, fully funded in Sn3 by Mike and myself. Bill is planning to do correct trucks for the cars, the ones with a longer wheel base and inside hung brake shoes. If any one is interested in expanding the project to include HOn3 and O scale, please contact Bill directly. Plenty of time, tentatively scheduled for early 2023.

If you check the Co-Op dashboard, the On3 Pullman Palace project is morphing and growing. Now funded in all three scales, it will include 1880s Pullman Palace Cars with lettering for both DSP&P and D&RG. It has also grown to include the Tourist sleepers, one of which was converted to a coach: UPD&G 193, in 1899 C&S 153, finally C&S 62, used until abandonment.  
https://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/CandS/cc-passenger/coach_193updg1.htm






So if you can't find or afford OMI coaches, the baggage cars and coach 62 make a two car passenger train possible.

The Pullman project will also include business car 910, also converted from an early Pullman:
https://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/CandS/dsp-passenger/southpark1.htm



Denver Water board Special taking water at Selkirk, January 1929. Business car 910 at the rear.


So, Keith, the C&S "brass hats" can travel from Denver to Leadville in style, to inspect that trestle and investigate why it has taken so long to install those extra stringers . . .

[Keith Hayes]

Well, it is amazing how much interest the Co-Op Program has generated.

I contacted Bill today about my interest in the 0100-0107 Cinder Cars. Looks like he has a couple years work in his spare time already booked.

Jim, I will probably not purchase either the 62 or the 910 as I already have these from Cimarron. As I just experienced a ride in the Pullman restored by the Friends--and it is an exceptionally handsome car that also rides well--I might be able to get the Treasurer to fund that purchase.

And the inside.


But 089 is still on my wish list.

[pizlinard72]

I would be happy to support passenger car project in On3  for those cars that lasted at least until the late twenties / early thirties. Work cars as well.
Could you please tell me what the next steps would be?
Best, Christian

[Jim Courtney]

Hi Christian,

It looks like Bill's Pullman project is fully funded in HOn3/Sn3/On3, including the proposed spin offs (tourist sleepers, C&S coach 62 and C&S business car 910).

The baggage cars C&S 1 and 2 are fully funded by Mike and myself in Sn3 only. One option would be to join Mike and I and fund the same two cars in On3.

Another option to consider is to approach Bill about funding another spin-off of the Pullmans, the C&S RPO-coaches, numbers 40, 41, 42, and 43:  https://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/CandS/dsp-passenger/coach-rpos.htm

The RPO-coaches were converted from Pullmans about 1906, were in common use on the Denver to Leadville passenger and on Clear Creek. During the 1920s they were commonly seen on the Denver to Como run, as no RPO service was present in the 1920s from Como to Leadville.


Otto Perry photo. September, 1922. Consist is Baggage 3, RPO-coach and two coaches


In about 1930, the Leadville passenger train became tri-weekly with RPO service restored Denver to Leadville.

If you want to participate in Bill's program, contact him directly at: https://leadvilledesigns.com/pages/contact-us

[Todd A Ferguson]

I would also be interested in the On3 cars, as a buyer and possibly an investor too.

The Peninsular cars are a great choice too.  I have one of the CW kits for this coal car that is about ready for the paint shop.

Finding the appropriate trucks for all these cars is always a question in my mind.  But that may mostly be my lack of knowledge at this point...  still learning and trying to improve my knowledge.

Best,
Todd

[Jim Courtney]

Steve is correct, some of the parts for the baggage cars 1 and 2 could be used to kit-bash other cars.

Consider Maxwell's drawing (derived from various folio sheets) of the baggage cars:




Baggage car 3, when rebuilt with end platforms removed, was only a foot longer than cars 1 & 2. So a kit for cars 1 and 2 could be used as a basis for modeling number 3. Would require new laser cut sides with single door. Perhaps Bill could be convinced to cut "after market" sides to allow the conversion.

I'm more interested in number 3 as it appeared in the first decade. Originally a Colorado Central baggage car, it had a distinctive duck-billed roof and four windows per side:





As late as 1909-1910, the car still had the same roof and four windows, though the windows appear to be squared:


McClure photo, DPL.


Baggage 3 is there, right behind C&S number 9 and ahead of one of the RPO coaches, so this has to be after 1906.  I have a Shapeways SPC duck bill roof print that could be shortened. I would have to have new sides and ends for this version.

Since I'm an "investor" in the kit for C&S 1 and 2, I might take advantage of my "discount" and buy 4 kits, build a C&S number 3 circa 1924, and a C&S number 3 circa 1909.

The results wouldn't be exact to prototype, but I doubt anyone would notice . . . except maybe Ken Martin.

[Todd A Ferguson]

Mr Poole did the original cinder car as an O scale model.  I believe he had an article on it in maybe MR.  I’m sure he probably did a lot of research as did Bob Stears when he built his O scale models.  They were cast in resin and I think I ended up with 3 On3 kits from Cimarron Works. I also purchased one of the Berlin models off eBay a couple years ago. They are nice too.

I thought that Rio Grande Models did the cinder cars in S scale but if they did I’m not sure if they are still available.  Regardless a new model is certainly a worthwhile piece.  I would probably by one in O scale and possibly a couple in S scale.  I just find the car to be very neat and I love gondolas.

I will probably be in for a couple of the 30’ Peninsular gondolas too.  I also have one of the CW kits for that car, it is ready for the paint shop.

When we talk about 3D printed trucks are confident in their ability to hold up to operations.  I bought some 3D printed HO trucks in resin and the details were nice but they were quite brittle.  And I’m not convinced workable for operation unless the Tichy cast bearings are added.  Maybe we can convince Bob or others to do some injection molded early trucks in the future.

I love this whole idea of getting models created using this approach.  My C&S interests lean towards 1900 to 1915 in On3. Hopefully I can get involved in some of the funding in the future.  I was diagnosed with stage 3 prostrate cancer in January and working through that has taken much of my attention and finances in 2021.  But I’m through treatment and trying to get back to my too numerous hobby interests.

Best,
Todd

[Todd A Ferguson]

Steve, I have my own laser and played around with making Sn3 passenger car sides in the past.  My efforts were based on the Jackson and Sharp design but I think the construction was more common than different.  It is not that hard to draw them up for cutting.

I will try to dig out some samples and take some photos to post.  I believe I cut the layers out of 1/64” plywood at the time.  I’m thinking I did 3 or 4 layers to make a side which was to include the interior siding and trim.

Todd

[Todd A Ferguson]

Keith,

I suspect the later cinder cars could be done with the hinges printed in 3D and the peak inside done with scribed styrene sheet.  I’m making the assumption they were peaked inside but I don’t know for sure.  

The hinges could also be built as brass or styrene masters and cast in resin too.  An entire side could also be built up and cast as a complete side...

Todd

[Jim Courtney]

Bill Meredith has posted the planned 2022 schedule for the proposed Co-Op projects (https://leadvilledesigns.com/collections/modelers-co-op-dashboard):

Per Bill:

"I had my work cut out for me planning for 2022 with such an eclectic mix of projects. In the end the strategy was to respect the order in which people signed on while trying to address the many interests. Some of the projects can be done in parallel. At this point, the roll out for 2022 is set to:

 1. D&RG 3000 series boxcar as delivered (HO &S). This kit will follow in the tradition of the AC&F cars but with all new hardware and sill layout.  Lettering will be in the 1903-1920 "D&RG" setup.  ETA: March

 2. Carter Brothers SPC 28' combo boxcar (HO/S/O). ETA: April.

 3. Pullman Sleeper (HO/S/O). This car will be released in a series of variations starting with the Palace sleeper (42' body) with lettering for the DSP&P and D&RG cars. That is, the letterboard will state "Pullman Sleeping Car" but there will be correct names for the cars that plied the DSP&P and names for the cars that ran the D&RG. Future variation will include the Tourist sleeper, the C&S coach #62, and C&S #910 Business car.  Initial roll out scheduled for Fall 2022.

 4. D&RGW 9600 series pipe gon (HO/S/O. Cut down from standard gauge boxcars, these cars are unique. These kits will be predominantly etched brass using fold and tab architecture. Correct trucks will also be produced if needed. ETA June.

 5.  C&S Cinder car and C&S 4200-4400 series, 1902 coal cars (HO/S/O) Given the similar nature of these cars, combining them made sense. Expect these in the Fall.
 Keith gets his cinder car!!

 6. DSP&P Way car (HO/S/O). These will have laser wood, etched and cast brass components. Expect these in the summer.

 7. C&S Baggage cars (HO/S/O). Fall 2022!

 8. UP/C&S Peninsular Coal cars (HO/S/O) Later Fall 2022

 9. D&RG 4000 30' Boxcar in revenue and MOW configurations (HO/S/O). The revenue kit will include all options for you to build the car as either "as delivered" with straight air, pre safety appliance and wood roof or post safety with Murphy roof and WABCO. It will be very cool. Fall.
(An unexpected "cool" car, original had left opening side doors:)

10. D&RG B&S stock car (HO/O) In keeping with the early Colorado B&S heritage, this car will fit right in and a car that has never been offered before. Fall.

"There are others of course. Expect to see a lot more California SP/NCNG/NCO/NPC/SPC, etc. cars as well as more Colorado NG.  Also expect to see more buildings, locomotive subjects and parts, decals..."


Looks like I need to stay busy and build the kits that I have, to clear the decks for summer and fall C&S arrivals . . .

[Jim Courtney]

Bill Meredith has just released the first of the Co-Op cars, in all three scales. He is now taking orders and shipping the D&RG 3000 series boxcars, as built in 1904, a project sponsored by Geoff Hamway:




My two kits (for D&RG interchange cars at Breckenridge in 1909) arrived last week. I've only done a cursory inspection but it looks to be a great kit, with very cleanly laser cut wood parts, brass etchings for the hardware. The split cylinder/reservoir with the by-pass plumbing to allow straight air or automatic air brake operation is a beautiful 3-D print.

For any of you West Coast narrow gauge modelers lurking out there, Bill has also just released and is shipping the South Pacific Coast 28-foot combination (ventilated) box car, again in all three scales. https://leadvilledesigns.com/

Next up for Leadville Designs appears to be passenger cars, Pullman Sleepers and their offspring, to be exact. Bill just did a Facebook post with a copy of the add that will run in the July/August Gazette:




So if any of you DSP&P modelers have wanted a Plan 73, 42 foot Palace Sleeper for the through night trains to Leadville or Gunnison, here is your chance. To be available in all three scales, with correct 6-foot wheel base brass trucks also in the works. Design phase just underway, price and final availability TBD. Pre-orders not yet accepted.

I was going to pass on these, as the 1880s is too early for my modeling interests. But the "Tourist Sleeper Coach" piqued my interest. One of these cars later became C&S coach 153 / 62. That version is planned by Bill for the future, as is business car B-1 / 910.

But checking out things at Hendrick Hayes's website, it appears that after sleeping car service to Gunnison was canceled in 1887, the Pullman sleepers Bonanza and Leadville were rebuilt as coaches in 1892 and sold to the UPD&G, numbered 177 and 179 on that road. https://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/CandS/dsp-passenger/bonanza-leadville-sanjuan1.htm

Here one is pictured (car in the middle) in 1894 at an excursion to the east portal of Alpine Tunnel:

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll21/id/3700/rec/4



Either UPD&G 177 or 179 is the coach in the middle, behind all the unattractive, frowning people.

When the C&S emerged from receivership in January of 1899, the two Pullmans turned coaches were renumbered as C&S 146 and 148. They kept these numbers on the C&S until both were rebuilt into RPO-coaches in May of 1906 and were renumbered C&S 41 and 43.

So Dave Eggleston, here's a chance to have an authentic UPD&G coach for a late-1890s Central City layout. And I can justify one for my 1901 Breckenridge passenger consist, as a C&S coach.

In fact, I've wondered about the first coach behind the baggage car in this photo:




The car has 14 windows, but they don't exactly looked paired--and the roof vents don't seem to match. Perhaps Ken Martin can set me straight on this one!

[Chris Walker]

In fact, I've wondered about the first coach behind the baggage car in this photo:

Jim,

did you notice the Clerestory windows are in groups of threes?

[Jim Courtney]

Good eye, Chris!

Thumbing through Ken Martin's passenger car book, this looks like it may be C&S number 53, 54 or 55, before the far right window was covered at the location of the stove:




The two sets of paired roof vents for the lamps is consistent as well. If so, at the time of the photo with #13, the cars would have been numbered C&S 141, 142 and 143. They were originally Colorado Central 8, 9 and 10.

What say you Ken, did we figure it out?

[Ken Martin]

"What say you Ken, did we figure it out? "

Yes you did, it is car 55.

You are also right on the Pullmans. Bonanza and Leadville were converted to coaches and South Park became 910.
There were also three U&N Pullman as coaches on the UPD&G. One became mail coach #42 and the other two were destroyed in the 1906 car shop fire.
That is why they built car #40 from scratch otherwise the U&N cars would also have been mail-coaches.

I think I will be watching for the 910, and I am interested in the 6ft trucks they mentioned.

Ken Martin

[Dave Eggleston]

Jim Courtney wrote

So Dave Eggleston, here's a chance to have an authentic UPD&G coach for a late-1890s Central City layout. And I can justify one for my 1901 Breckenridge passenger consist, as a C&S coach.

Oh, geez, how can I say no to that?! This opens up even more thoughts on layout concepts. Dammit, Jim!

I was already planning to build coach 181, 182 or 183 (original CC 4, 2 and 3) which could be used either on a Central City layout or a small GSL&P cameo-style layout I'd like to build some day.

But I can push this further. Having an early CC coach AND a 177 or 179 means I can also look at having the Central City layout open to swapping between two different periods, either 1886 or 1895.  The perfect excuse to build, and use, more equipment than if the layout just represented one period.