Alpine Tunnel Glass

[John Droste]

It is interesting.
Any thoughts on the wire in the tunnel being used for the light in the middle of the tunnel?

[Don Peterson]

John
Electricity did not enter the picture in Colorado until 1891 when the Ames Power plant was opened in Telluride. Lantern would have been oil.

Don Peterson

[Robert McFarland]

Maybe not around Alpine Tunnel,but Denver Union Station had electric lighting in 1881 and at the same time Denver had a series of arc light towers(like todays modern freeway lamps)some of which served areas where DSP&P and D&RG were running.How early did Leadville or Gunnison have electric light?

[John Droste]

There are three reports that I have read regarding the Como engine house having a generator supplying enough power for three light bulbs. The generator was run off a belt attached to the steam engine. One of these reports is by Andy Anderson. Another came in my Colorado Models roundhouse kit. Another report I have spoken of before with two lights being in the Como depot and in each report, there was always one in the engine house.
 So why not a generator near the tunnel? The Alpine tunnel engine house? Not insisting, just proposing the idea for consideration.

The light in the tunnel would need to be regularly maintained if it was oil based, probably daily. Did somebody walk in each day. If an engine stopped they would all choke. So what`s going on?
 I can not recall where I read about the lamp but we are all aware of it. Was it specifically described as an oil lamp and even then, was that only presumed? As was the history of the depot.
The lamp was hanging from the top of the tunnel for the engine men to clearly see it upon approach. It could have been lowered on a cord to top up with oil, but what a hassle. Thought please.

[Chris Walker]

John Droste wrote

Chris, I do not know or understand the layout of the land or even the interconnecting maps to be precise. Somebody did mention in the DSP group years ago, 'rumour' of a photo a K exiting the tunnel.
But I wonder then, if a standard gauge snowplow on narrow gauge trucks can reach and pass through the tunnel, why not a K? Albeit a dead and empty K with possibly the drivers and or the connecting rods removed.
But for my individual pursuit too, perhaps the needs of the K to be on the Alpine pass route need not be the case either. For as I mentioned before, it was the road between Denver and Leadville that was broken, requiring the engine to be moved to Como for repairs.
So I am thinking between Buena Vista and Leadville. I need to and will learn about these things. Same as I did the depot, to reach understanding.

John,

every two years you seem to have resurrected this "K in Como rumor", I was going to collate an article and timeline but after having re-read the D&RGW Yahoo Group answers to you from many people, that you haven't seemed to have taken on board, I'll give that away.
 
Just keep in mind that the 1903 built Class 125 (K-27) was a big loco for that time, built as a Vauclain compound and not successful,
15 were purchased for the Marshall Pass line between Salida and Crested Butte, which had to be upgraded prior to operation, at that time the heaviest were Class 70/71 (C-19/C-17),  
prior to early 1911 the class were confined to Salida-Gunnison (more likely to Sargents) awaiting Bridge strengthening at Almont on the C.B branch.
first loco's in the class converted to simple in 1905,
two K-27's to upgraded Chama-Cumbres line in 1917,
Como shops discontinued circa 1910,
C&S had to rebuild their lines to handle the #74-#75-#76-#537 after circa 1923 before use,
K-27 to long for the Como turntable without disconnecting tender,
K-27 pilot plows were not seen in photo's before 1940's, prior to that large wedge plows were fitted as were to C-class.
Finally the Salida Leadville line was standard gauge and operated as such as part of the D&RG Denver to Salt Lake mainline. NG power would most likely be transited between Sal-Leadville and there is no mention anywhere of a K-27 or larger ever running to Leadville that I have read.

[John Droste]

Thank you Chris,
I am surprised that K27`s never ran to Leadville. I do believe you.
I do understand that a K would not fit on the turntable with the tender attached. Recently, I have come to understand that all the entrances to the stone roundhouse required turning of the turntable.
I also understand that a loaded K would as was once described, turn the rail to ribbon.
I imagine and imagine only that a dead and empty K27 would way less than the broad gauge snowplow machine that was used through and around the tunnel. So I can not discount that a K could have been towed that way. Maybe I am wrong on that.

Maybe I am wrong on what I believe I read about the description of a viewer watching as one person axed away the doorjambs to make way for a locomotive to enter while a third person watched, smoking a cigarette. That both doorjambs were cut back to the stone for the pilot plow to scrape through between the stone. That one doorjamb was cut back so much for the cylinder or cylinders that it lost its structural purpose.
 I did read something, whatever it was, I did read something and nobody seems to be aware of what made me aware of the doorjambs. Know what I mean? But that does not make me correct in what I am saying. I am just saying that when I first spoke of the doorjambs in the DSP group, Deb, soon produced some photos of the doorjambs in question.
 IF, there had been known discussions on these doorjambs before, they would have been brought up by now.

 So my quest is not so much to prove something that I believe that I read, but to actually find out what I did read.

I have a respect for your knowledge, it is outstanding. But I have found in life when people look at things with a point of view, they are not perceiving things from other angles too.
 I also respect the views of Jerry Day, who gave me this information which it seems is a different point of view to yours, with respect.

Width over cylinders 10'5"
Width over plow pilot 10'7&1/2"
Width of cab 9'5"
Sources: D&RGW erecting card 10801 dated Jan 18 1926. Baldwin locomotive specifications.

Now I have provided these measurements in the past. And I have no doubt that they have been checked. No doubt! The issue has created a great deal of debate. I am quite certain that if that measurement across the stone pillars is not very very near the plow pilot measurement, I would have been informed by now. Also, that the measurement from the scallop at cylinder hight to the stone pillar opposite will only be just larger than the width of measurement that Jerry provided.
 But nobody has verified that yet. And I think that that is a story in itself.

 But as I said before, I want to rediscover what I had read more than force what I believe that I read. But if the measurements don`t stack up, then I am wrong in what i thought I read.
Thanks for your input, sincerely.

[Chris Walker]

Well John,

I should have mentioned that the D&RG biggest standard gauge loco's at the t-o-c were the 1902 class 190 2-8-0's at 43,200lbs T.E. which is probably why there was no point in using the largest n.g. power on that line. The 3-rd rail only existed to allow transit of N.G. cars to the Smelters of Leadville and other traffic to a lesser extent behind more powerful S.G. locos.


What Jerry Day wrote you was indeed correct, but only for 1925 built K-36 locomotives.  A couple of years after the removal of the 3-rd rail between Salida and Leadville.  Again, that style of pilot plow wasn't seen on K-27's until the 1940's.

A class 125(K-27) occasionally were fitted with Wedgeplows that looked like this. This plow was 10ft 2in wide. The #09271 Plowgon assigned to Gunnison had a 9ft wide wedgeplow.


from the Collection of Robert D Stull


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/46734/rv/singleitem

Please note that this image shows the third rebuild of Cylinders on K-27 which had a width of 9ft 5-3/4", the same dimensions as were the Compound and Simple cylinder configurations.  
Drawings of K-27 Wedge Plow photos and drawing can be found here,  http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,237184,237228#msg-237228

Note the wedgeplows do not have a front coupler so the K would have to be towed backwards and that would not be a simple exercise as moving into a roundhouse nearby but be considered as Freight and billed as such if it was to be hauled on its own to Como on the C&S as you insist.

Distances:
from Leadville to Como via Breckenridge, 62.9 miles over two 11,000+ft passes with Blue River and Gold Pan trestles to cross.
from Leadville to Como via Buena Vista, 83 miles assuming Trout Creek wasn't washed out, circa 1910.
from Leadville to Salida, on home rails to large company shops, 60.5 miles.

I'm assuming this blockade you mention to enable this scenario is during Wintertime.
The first routing on C&S would also be fraught with snow clearance issues on Fremont and Boreas along with slide issues in the Tenmile canyon.    The D&RG route which supposedly is blocked would be Brown's Canon, I don't see how snow would effect that part of the Mainline maybe rockslides, but since this is a S.G. line of importance I'd think priority would be given to restoring service before some broke-down narrow gauge loco would be.  

I see what you are suggesting with the comparison of Rotary Snowplows vs dead K-27 weightwise.
That would be found in these figures as to the effects on trestles and roadway structure.

The D&RG 1889-built Rotary OM(I don't have the C&S Rotary figures) weighed 101,500lbs with a truck c~c spacing of 16ft 5in.
A K-27 had a total wheelbase of 24ft 6in carrying(superheated) 140,250lbs mty, the actual driver wheelbase at 11ft 5in carried 108,300lbs mty.  These figures are excluding the Tenders of each.

The Rotary weight is spread over a greater area of track/bridge structure than the K engine and is somewhat 20 short Tons lighter to boot.

Looking at your pictures of the Doorjambs has intrigued me, the cutaways are staggered to fit the shape Not of a Rotary nor Wedgeplow.  Has it ever occurred to you that in the post-Railroad use as a Sawmill, some oversized machinery could have been installed in the building?

One would be remiss if the very own C&S #74 with its canted slide-valves weren't considered or the piston-valved #75 #76.  How about the CB&Q #537 needing adjustments made to the doorway?

Perhaps the doorways were circumcised many years earlier?


Lastly, there are two books written concerning the South Park C&S Enginemen's reminiscences neither those have any mention what so ever of the big news of a D&RG K in Como.     Forrest Crossen's South Park Railroaders and Sam Speas Goin' Rairoading.  Mac Poor also had some in D.S.P.& P.

As to exercising memory and people being mistaken:

NGDF poster Dave Grandt posted that (the well respected) John W Maxwell wrote to the well-known Cliff Grandt...
 http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,235219,235432#msg-235432
"...seems #21 never got the Spark Arrester on the stack since she was only used on the Morrison Branch..."
Todd Hackett in reply, pointed out..."This photo at DPL disagrees." http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/search/searchterm/OP-6204


In the Iron Horse News issue #173 August 1993  Bob Richardson wrote this snippet:



Sources Used:
Dennis O'Berry  The Mudhens D&RG Locomotive Folio Sheets
Robert LeMassenna Rio Grande to the Pacific D&RG Timetable No. 13 1881 for Mileages
Narrow Gauge Pictorial Vol-XII  OM Folio Info
Mac Poor D.S.P.&P. Memorial Ed.  C&S Station List for Mileages

[John Droste]

Chris,
thanks for your informative sharing of information on various subjects. The size of those wedgeplows are something indeed.
Mention has been made in the past of the roundhouse being used as a sawmill. Interesting that the photos that I pointed out are two different doorways but each has hacked doorjambs. And I agree, equipment grew larger over time and the doorways as they were became to narrow, whatever that machinery was. But I doubt that the doorjambs were hacked for the sawmill just as much as you would, I am sure. As much as you doubt my idea that I had read somebodies memoirs on Como, somewhere.
 All good. I trust that I will rediscover what I read one day.
 Thanks again for your efforts.

[ComoDepot]

Chris, I was chatting with a guy who worked for the sawmill operation in the Roundhouse last Saturday, mutual friend's Birthday bash, also those who worked up here this summer probably know John Sweetman, the guy on Oxygen, his grandfather rented one of the bays in the Roundhouse in the 50's, maybe earlier, to store his air compressors.

The sawmill was in bay 3 and the blade used one of the inspection pits.

Cooley was the one who knocked down the Boiler extension, Bill Kaisel spoke to some of his Employees back in the 80's. the stone is buried somewhere near the Roundhouse. He did it to get his machinery into the Roundhouse. Cooley finished in 46 but did not sell the property until 54.

We have had our first significant snow and my phone pings with alerts on road restrictions, never had one for BV/Leadville now I come to think of it, wide open valley.

[John Droste]

Would just like to apologise to the creator of this thread for any part that I played in discussing matter other than the subject heading. it was a worthy discussion. I found the subject to be interesting.

[Chris Walker]

John,
since you have a penchant for finding the oddest stuff on a subject about the most fabulous Railroad ever to cross Colorado: please, next time you read about this sort of thing, or find any collaborating information that pertains to your notions expressed so far, record the source.  Then everyone will get to judge whether that source is credible, or fictitious.

The modern computer allows this undertaking to be rapid and efficient.  
Don't just bookmark a link, actually copy and paste to save the page, or item and collate such into a traceable format so you can ready reference easily. Subject and detail is important.  Links can get broken, hosting services migrate, so file saved is worth a thousand recollections.

[Todd Hackett]

Chris Walker wrote

...Todd Hackett disagreed and pointed out..."Here's proof that didn't happen."...

I've been misquoted! Looking back at the post (which I have no recollection of having made), I never personally disagreed, and only said "This photo at DPL disagrees"

[Todd Hackett]

John Droste wrote

There are three reports that I have read regarding the Como engine house having a generator supplying enough power for three light bulbs. The generator was run off a belt attached to the steam engine. ...So why not a generator near the tunnel? The Alpine tunnel engine house? ...

The Como roundhouse had stationary boilers, so steam was available to run the generator (which may have been a locomotive dynamo rather than a generator operated from an engine). I'm not aware of any boiler at the Alpine Tunnel. These lights in Como were probably installed well into the 20th century after tungsten filament light bulbs were readily available.

[Chris Walker]

Todd Hackett wrote

I've been misquoted! Looking back at the post (which I have no recollection of having made), I never personally disagreed, and only said "This photo at DPL disagrees"

   I'm sorry about that Todd, slip of the mind. One of the pitfalls of editing a quote directly from another forum into another convoluted post; at least I dug it out and offered the link.  The intent demonstrated remained true.

[Kurt Maechner]

In reference to the inconvenience of walking into the tunnel to light the oil lamp, I have always assumed that the snowshed doors had to be closed by someone not on the train (during a season when this was necessary of course).  For example, a westbound train probably would stop before entering the tunnel and a crew member would open the snow shed doors at east portal.  (The west portal doors were opened potentially by someone at the west portal complex either based on time schedule or a whistle)  The train would then proceed through the tunnel.  Presumably it would continue onto the Alpine Tunnel complex.  Someone, then, had to walk back through the tunnel, possibly someone who worked there (section gang?), to close the doors again, and then walk back.  I'm just guessing, of course, but it seems that workers walking through the tunnel had to be somewhat common.

[John Droste]

Would be smokey? Would they not want the smoke to clear to prevent asphyxiation?

[Kurt Maechner]

I suppose the could have walked the trail over Altman Pass to do it instead of walking through the tunnel.  That just seems like it would be a long way.

[ComoDepot]

Mike Pershbackers great granduncle worked at the tunnel.

He was too young to work on the trains.

He would be sent down to St Elmo for supplies, in the winter.

[John Droste]

Hi David,
wondering if you had a look at the west wall of the office to look for screw, nail or bolt holes that would match fixing points for the TOB lever apparatus?
 

Regarding tunnel end to end, how long would it take to make that cold dark lonely journey through on foot?

[Kurt Maechner]

Imagine the darkness in the center of that tunnel!  Or just imagine closing the snowshed doors from inside and being submerged into blackness.  I've read some of the accounts of those who got into the tunnel many years after abandonment and they mention the extreme darkness.