1902 coal car lettering details

[Jeff Young]

I'm trying to find the lettering details of the 1902 coal cars (#4246 - 4407) prior to receiving their button heralds.  As I understand it, these kept their "The Colorado Road" heralds through the block lettering period, with survivors being re-shopped with button heralds in the late 20's.

I've found enough evidence that the box herald was between the centre two stakes, centred vertically as well.  But as for road numbers, weights, etc., I'm somewhat in the dark.

Jim pointed me to http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/1428/rv/singleitem/rec/24, which confirms the herald positioning, but not much more:



Jim also has a post-card of Baileys in 1926, but it's equally far away and inconclusive:



Page 68 of Narrow Gauge Pictorial vol VIII shows #4283 with the bare remains of the herald, and with what would appear to be button-herald-style road name and number, but on the sill rather than in the usual button-herald locations.  Are there perhaps original, and not button-herald-period additions?  I'm skeptical, as I would expect something more along the lines of the Peninsular 30'ers:



Anyone have any better photos to share, or know where I might look for them?

Thanks,
Jeff.

[Jeff Young]

Nearly forgot about that great Kokomo Walsh smelter picture (http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/38704/rec/1):

• In the centre we have 4908, a Peninsular 30' with herald on the left, roman lettering on the sill, and button-style road name and number in the centre.


• To the left is 4624, which I think is a 1902 car cut down and converted to a drop-end gondola -- although the 4600 series ended at 4616 according to Narrow Gauge Pictorial vol VIII, so I'm not 100% sure. In any case, from what we can see it's lettered the same as 4908.


• And to the right is a St. Charles 4-board coal car (4086 - 4245?), where all we can make out is a button-style road name and number on the sill.

Does my analysis look correct?

[Jim Courtney]

Jeff,

The 4908 is indeed a 30 foot Peninsular coal car of 1884.  The lettering at the smelter in Kokomo is most typical of "The Colorado Road" scheme applied to the inherited coal cars: Rectangular herald to the left, small reporting marks and number between the center stakes, name spelled out in upper/lower case Roman on the side sills. Perhaps it's best to refer to this scheme as "C&S Roman", as does Derrell in the R Rob Pictorial VIII. This photo was taken about 1901, perhaps as late as 1903, given the link-in-pin couplers on the boxcars in the same photo.

The McClure photo in the previous post, at Baileys (gentleman loading ties or lumber from his wagon) is later, likely 1909-10. The 4970, also a Peninsular 30 foot car, has been heavily shopped, with new 12 inch side sills, notched at the ends to accept the end beams. The virgin Peninsular coal cars had side sills that tapered from the bolster plate to meet the end beams, as on 4908 at Kokomo.  Perhaps 4970 was shopped and lettered some time after the arrival of the ASF coal cars of 1902, but prior to 1906, and thus had the box herald relocated between the center stakes, as this was the new convention for lettering of the day.

I don't know what to think of car 4624 to the left, but it's not a 1902 ASF car nor a Peninsular 30 footer.  Note that the trucks are the 14 ton UP "coal car" trucks of 1882-1883. Also, the stake pockets seem different, and the sills while tapered seem smaller. I've wavered back and forth as to whether this is a Litchfield 26 foot car that has been rebuilt with new box and stakes (Litchfield cars had 10 inch side sills, and 8, not 6, stake pockets spread out, the ones on the end very near the end beam), or one of the 27 foot UP built cars of the 300 series, built for the DSP&P in 1882, that was rebuilt with new lower sides.  Consider:



This late 1890s image of one of the Litchfield coal cars looks very similar to 4624, but has 12 ton Litchfield trucks.  But:




This Litchfield flat car rebuilt as a B&B work flat, c1910, has the heavier 14 ton UP "coal car" trucks like 4624 at Kokomo.


The 300 series UP built coal cars looked like this when new in 1882:




Note the tall truck transoms and taller side sills. The 400 series UP built 27 foot cars of 1883 differed in having straight side sills, and taller sides. C&S 4637 in this c1901 photo shows how they looked in the early C&S years:

 

All in all, I'm leaning toward 4624 as a rebuilt 26 foot Litchfield car. But who knows, perhaps it is another anomaly, another UP refugee from Utah, that was clustered into the 46xx series (for 26-27 foot coal cars) at the dawn of the C&S. If Ron Rudnick stops by to browse, I'd be interested on his opinions.

While interesting, none of this is closer to answering your question related to 1902 coal cars in 1925. I'd forget about the inherited coal cars, as the 26-27 footers seem to disappear after the 1902 coal cars arrived. And the Peninsular 30 footers, while surviving longer due to their capacity and 20 ton trucks, were likely all gone by the mid to late teens.

However, one neat car to consider for 1925 is this one:


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/42966

I believe that the first coal car behind the engine, in this 1931 photo, is one of the surviving 3 board St Charles coal cars built in 1897 for the UPD&G, the year before the St Charles C&S cars were built (can't remember, but I think Derrell posted this point either here, or perhaps published it in one of his magazine articles).



It has re-built drop ends and has been re-numbered 4601, when rebuilt in the late 19teen's. Note the 4 mismatched extra stake pockets, typical of St Charles cars. Also note the three side boards, 12 inch on the bottom, two 10 inch boards above; and the first 2 stakes are old St Charles tapered stakes, straight up to the top of the first side board, tapering above.  These cars were supposedly rebuilt in 1918, so a car modeled in the mid 1920s could wear either weathered "C&S Block" lettering or very fresh, new "C&S Button" lettering (in this case, sans "button").

And any late 1920s C&S layout might be able to squeeze in a silver CONX tank car or two, as we don't really know when they first changed from original black to interim silver. One of my RGS friends is convinced they were showing up painted silver as early as 1926 in southwest Colorado.

Just saying, they're awfully neat:

[Chris Walker]

In the last picture, the first Tank car has the hallmarks of Conx8, I don't remember seeing it in Silver before.

And in your 3rd picture,  http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll21/id/9869/rv/singleitem/rec/167
I noticed that you didn't pickup on something I have had sitting on the back-burner for awhile now, partly to see if  I could find more photos of it.



The fourth car in train is a Colorado Central highsider.  Aside to the reason of what a CC car is doing West of Alpine Tunnel,  I wonder if this is a "Slimes" car in Mill service, possibly destined for loading at Pitkin maybe?   The construction seems to be of tighter fit in the sideboards than I've ever seen on any other coalcars and the central cross brace would be of use in holding a semi-fluid product than rock.  Note also the end timbers are held in place by no less than 3 tierods.

So far I haven't found anymore about that type of car.   Any ideas ?

[Robert McFarland]

Notice that 3210 still has outside hung brakes..

[Robert McFarland]

You have 2-3 pictures of CC RPO cars in Gunnison bound passenger trains,an excursion car at Pitkin,and a CC boxcar at Baker Tank on Boreas Pass.All taken about the same time as that picture.

[Jim Courtney]

Sorry Chris,

I'm not very well versed in early Colorado Central and UPDG freight cars.  This is were you need one of the specialists to weigh in and offer a consult.

Paging Ron Rudnick!  Paging Dr. Stears!  Dr. Stears to the Discussion Forum!

[Jim Courtney]

Yes Chris, I think the first silver tank car is probably CONX 8--it has that plump, squat look and has the UTLX style horizontal brake staff at the upper car end.  I've read somewhere that CONX 10 was also used one the C&S; it was longer and skinnier than CONX 8, but had the same general configuration.

Wish I knew exactly when the change in paint schemes took place, from the original black with "Continental Oil Co" on the sides, to silver with the green "CONOCO".  The above 1931 photo has two silver tankers, while this Fall of 1929 photo of C&S 75 with train, near Grant, has a tall domed CONX tank car still painted black:


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/43130/rec/25

[Chris Walker]

Harry Brunk published the Conx 8 picture taken at I.S. in the NG&SL Gazette January/February 1989 issue which is in my C&Sn3 Blog post about that image
http://coloradosouthern.blogspot.co.nz/2015/09/harry-brunks-30-year-old-mystery_11.html

The lettering shows the Tank Painted as 03-1940.  Best I can make out on the silver Conx 19 at Morrison in 1938 is Tank Painted 1932.  Your eyes maybe will do better.

[Jim Courtney]

Ah, but that's the rub:  The CONX cars were first black in the early to mid 1920s (as in Doug Heitkamp's photo below); then silver beginning some time between 1926-1930; then they were painted black again between 1937-1940.  Then all were off to Mexico during WW2 (1943-44?), disappearing from Colorado forever.



Sorry Jeff, we have shamelessly hijacked your 1902 coal car thread and began the pursuit of CONX tank cars, no "tanks" to Chris and I.

[Jeff Young]

He he... "tanks" is actually how some pronounce it in Ireland.

Anyway, no worries, I've found it fascinating.  Here I was just thinking about phase I, II and III --  I had no idea how complicated the car scene was around the turn of the century.

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Jeff Young]

OK, so I don't have enough info to do two 1902 coal cars in "known" states. Rather than guess a little on both, my current plan is:

Letter the first (4283) exactly as seen in NGP vol VIII, p. 68:

• central "Colorado Road" herald and road number
• dimensional data at lower right
• "C&S" and road number on the sill

The second (4296) will then be back-dated from the known state shown in NGP vol VIII, p. 70:

• central "Colorado Road" herald and build date
• dimensional data at lower right
• "Colorado & Southern" and road number on the sill a la 4071 (Baileys lumber) and 4908 (Kokomo Walsh smelter)

[Chris Walker]

Jim Courtney wrote

Ah, but that's the rub:  The CONX cars were first black in the early to mid 1920s (as in Doug Heitkamp's photo below); then silver beginning some time between 1926-1930; then they were painted black again between 1937-1940.  Then all were off to Mexico during WW2 (1943-44?), disappearing from Colorado forever.

Thanks Jim,  I appreciate the correction, info on that sort of item floats in and out of my head so I don't actually memorise dates so much.

[Jim Courtney]

Can anyone make out or have any idea what the three words are, on the right side of the tank, under "OIL CO."?

I'd like to do art work for decals for the original lettering.  The "Continental Oil Co." should be pretty easy, and the reporting marks, dimensional/capacity markings as well as end lettering appear to be the same as the later black cars, so Thinfilm sets could be used.

For the life of me I can't figure out those three offset, stacked words are.

[Ron Rudnick]

Car #4624 is former DSP&P 26' Litchfield coal car #8035.
The Colorado Central coal car was the standard CC coal car.  
There is nothing special about it being on a DSP&P train, as the two roads commonly interchanged cars.  
Mineral Belt II, p367 shows a former CC coal car, lettered C&S #4595    

[Ken Martin]

Jim,

This should answer some questions.

Ken Martin

NOTES FROM CLINIC DAVE GRANDT GAVE AT THE
                20TH NAT. NG CONV. ST. LOUIS

Cars originally had COLX reporting marks and narrow frames, after several wrecks cars were rebuilt with wide frames.

In 1925 CONOCO bought and CONX marks assigned. Cars painted black
w/ white letters

---     __________________/handrail  
          CONTINENTAL OIL CO.
                                         PRODUCERS
CONX                                   REFINERS
 XX                                          MARKETERS
---

CONOCO bought by Marlin Oil in 1930 and cars painted silver with green lettering.

In 1935 cars painted black with white letters.

In 1935 wide frame cars renumbered to fill in no. 1-4, no big letters.

CONOCO sold their cars in 1944 then leased UTLX cars.

40 oil distributers  were on the NG.
TEXACO buildings had gray trim.
CONOCO buildings had green trim.

14 on C&S in 1942, Leadville to climax no CONOCO

[Jim Courtney]

As always, Ron, thanks for sharing your expertise!

[Jim Courtney]

Great information, Ken, just what the doctor ordered!

Thanks so much for sharing this.

Jim

[Jeff Young]

Indeed, excellent stuff Ron and Ken.

And as long as we're branching out into other car types, the barcar half of the Kokomo Walsh smelter picture:

[Jim Courtney]

The two cars to the left, I believe, are 1883 UP built boxcars of 27 feet.  Again, both have the 14 ton "coal car" trucks as early as 1901.  I'm beginning to think that all the 27 foot UP built cars (coal, box, maybe even the 27 foot St Charles built Tiffany reefers) were delivered with the 14 ton "coal car" trucks (what Doug Heitkamp calls the type-C truck), not the so called "type B" truck of Coronado Scale Models nomenclature.

The box car to the right is a 30 foot Peninsular car of 1884; it has a single outside truss rod on queen posts, and no side poling pockets.

Both types of box cars likely survived as outfit car rebuilds in 1925, Jeff, like this one:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/78391/rec/787



Some early photos of both cars:

Both: http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll21/id/7141/rec/118


Number 1049 is a 30 foot Peninsular boxcar, while 840 is a 27 foot UP built car.




Look how tall the transoms under the Tiffany reefer in the same train look.


http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll21/id/9869/rec/167


And the transoms on the trucks of these two Tiffanies also look very tall, especially compared with the 12 ton Litchfield trucks under the coal car that follows. And, Jeff, note the early culvert under the second Tiffany reefer.

Is it possible that what we think of as the "type B" swing beam truck is actually the 20 ton Peninsular truck of 1884, used only on Peninsular 30 foot box, coal and flat cars?

What say you Ron Rudnick??