1902 coal car lettering details

[Robert McFarland]

The trucks on 3210 have the little wing on them that disappeared after the DSP&P stopped using Eames vacuum brakes.

[Keith Hayes]

Dammit Jim, I have just about filled out my circa1939 rolling stock roster and you've got me hankering to build some of these older cars now.

[Jim Courtney]

Hold on Jeff,

Thanks to a post of Derrell's back in April, I found another 1902 coal car hiding in one of Chris Walker's busy Idaho Springs photos, around 1903-06:


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/67645/rv/singleitem/rec/97

This is at maximal enlargement, so there is not much new to see. Does show the herald between the center stakes, much like the Peninsular car at Baileys in 1910. If the bottom line of characters is the small road number, then the box herald appears much like that at Baileys, centered horizontally between the stakes but higher on the side, centered vertically over the top 3 boards. Some sort of dimensional data is between the 2 takes to the right end.

A closer look at coal car 4283 on page 68 of the Pictorial VIII also suggests that the top line of the box herald is in the middle of the top board, the bottom line of the box in the middle of the 3rd board, and the small road number centered below at the top of the bottom (4th) board.

In the right background is one of the 30 foot Peninsular coal cars with the tapered side sills.  The box herald vaguely appears on the left end of the car, like the Peninsular car at Kokomo.

Both cars sure do seem pretty weathered!

[Jim Courtney]

Outfit cars, Keith, outfit cars!

Old 27 foot and 30 foot box cars, rebuilt into a couple of outfit cars would look good in Leadville, down by the roundhouse maybe. And perhaps a 26 foot Litchfield flat as a work car for the B&B gang, with timbers and lumber and barrels of paint and kegs of nails cluttering up the deck.

And then there is that 3 board St Charles drop end coal car 4601--gotta have one of those!

The C&S is a giant buffet on which to dine!  Just enough photos to inspire, not enough to have your nits picked.

Jim

[Jeff Young]

This made me return to the original Idaho Springs picture in this thread, to see if the road number is under the box herald there. And while I think the answer is still “no”, I did notice that there’s a lot more detail visible on the sill than I thought:

The length of the lettering in the left section suggests “Colorado”, and in the centre there is a gap between “&” and what follows, but what follows appears to be longer than the “Sou” which usually goes with the ampersand. The gap in the right section is only slightly left of the middle, with what appears to be the entire road number.

But what's more, the “new” Idaho Springs picture appears to show the same.

The “normal” style is:

    ||          || Colorado ||  &   Sou || thern  42 || 46       ||

The middle car in the original Idaho Springs shot, and the 1902 car in the new Idaho Springs shot appear to be:

    ||          || Colorado || &  South || ern  4246 ||          ||

	
	
	
	

[Jim Courtney]

As far as lettering the side sills of the 1902 coal cars, I would take a cue from the 1902 flat cars. They were built at the same time, to the same plans, essentially the same coal cars without the coal box and stakes.

See Doug Heitkamp's "Pipes on Flats" photo, the foreground flat is a 1902 car:



The end beam detail should also be the same as the 1902 coal cars.

There are some clear photos of 1902 flats c1910-1912 in the R. Robb Pictorial VIII, pages 55 and 56 as well. Those cars 1090 (page 55), 1094, 1088 and 1082 (page 56) show the road name on the side sill as:

I         I I               I I  Colorado I I & Southern I I     1094   I I              I I         I

To my eye, the vague and distant side sill lettering on both the Idaho Springs coal cars above, are consistent with this arrangement. The side sills of the Peninsular coal cars are a different matter. They had to work around extra stake pockets for things to look symmetric.

Jim

[Bill Uffelman]

It would be helpful if the girls were out of the way so we could see the second flat car. 1083 has truss rods and Bettendorf trucks while the second car appears to have the much shallower side sill that goes with a Bettendorf frame - correct?

Bill Uffelman 

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From:"Jim Courtney [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum]" <[hidden email]>
Date:Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 1:29 PM
Subject:Re: 1902 coal car lettering details

As far as lettering the side sills of the 1902 coal cars, I would take a cue from the 1902 flat cars, built at the same time.

See Doug Heitkamp's "Pipes on Flats" photo, the foreground flat is a 1902 car:



The end beam detail should also be the same as the 1902 coal cars.

There are some clear photos c1910-1912 in the R. Robb Pictorial VIII, pages 55 and 56 as well.  Those cars 1090 (page 55), 1094, 1088 and 1082 (page 56) show the road name on the side sill as:

I         I I               I I  Colorado I I & Southern I I     1094   I I              I I         I

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[Jeff Young]

1083 is on arch-bar trucks.

The next one up does appear to have the sill depth of a steel underframe, but the stake pocket doesn’t look right for a Bettendorf (which should be a single wire 3/4 of the way up the sill, and a steel box under the sill).  Not sure what it is.

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Jim Courtney]

I don't think so, Bill.  

Doug's photo likely predates the arrival of the Bettendorf trucked wood and steel underframe cars.  The reweigh date of 1083 is 1-1905. The coal and flat cars Jeff is interested in were built by the C&S in 1902 from American Steel & Foundry steel hardware and rode on 4-foot wheel base ASF arch bar trunks. In Harry Brunk nomenclature, they are Phase 1 freight cars. In Derrell Poole nomenclature, they are part of the group of ASF cars (stock 1900, coal and flat 1902, a couple of odd boxcars 1903-06, and the 8067-8102 series boxcars of 1907).

I cropped Doug's original photo to highlight the 1902 car.  The original:



I'm not sure what to make of the three flat cars behind 1083, but I suspect they are all various rebuilds of old 26 and 30 foot inherited cars from the DL&G.  The second car with the skinny, straight side sills suggests to me a rebuilt Litchfield 26' flat. The third car with skinny straight sills and all the stake pockets, perhaps a rebuilt 30' Peninsular flat, with the outside truss rod on queen posts. The last car might be an un-rebuilt Litchfield flat with the wider, tapered sills and no visible truss rod.  Impossible to know for sure.  

We can discuss the rebuilt variations of the 26 and 30 foot inherited flats if you'd like, but that's another confusing, complicated topic.

Jim

[Bill Uffelman]

I need to stop looking at photos on my phone!

Bill Uffelman 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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From:"Jeff Young [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum]" <[hidden email]>
Date:Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 2:22 PM
Subject:Re: 1902 coal car lettering details

1083 is on arch-bar trucks.

The next one up does appear to have the sill depth of a steel underframe, but the stake pocket doesn’t look right for a Bettendorf (which should be a single wire 3/4 of the way up the sill, and a steel box under the sill).  Not sure what it is.

Cheers,
Jeff.

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NAML

[Jim Courtney]

Found another one, Jeff.

If you go back through Chris Walkers old threads about the various mills of Idaho Springs, you tend to find things hiding in the corners and back alleys, like long johns on a clothes line:


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/67650/rv/singleitem

The side sill lettering looks, to me, like that of the 1902 flat car.  And there seems to be a number under the box herald.

Found 2 more 1902 coal cars at the Newhouse Tunnel ore bins, but also blurry:


<a href="http://">http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/38898/rv/singleitem

You'd think you could find a clear period photo of the cars, wouldn't you?

And here's one with legible number 4394, at the Newhouse Boiler, but mostly hiding behind a tree:


<a href="http://">http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/77714/rv/singleitem/rec/6

[Chris Walker]

Ron Rudnick wrote

Car #4624 is former DSP&P 26' Litchfield coal car #8035.
The Colorado Central coal car was the standard CC coal car.  
There is nothing special about it being on a DSP&P train, as the two roads commonly interchanged cars.  
Mineral Belt II, p367 shows a former CC coal car, lettered C&S #4595

Ron,

what are your thoughts about the movement of an obviously empty that far away and headed away from Colorado Central rails?  A consignment of Baldwin Coal for a Clear Creek customer perhaps?   Were the per diem charges in effect back then.   All this is intriguing to me, given the foreign aspect coming from a Government Railways perspective.

[Jeff Young]

I think that last one is the clearest yet, Jim.  Great find.

(FWIW, I think that photo dates to between 1900 and 1907.  The road bridge to the Jackson Concentrating works appears to the far right, but the C&S trestle does not.  The 1900 Sanborn map has neither, while the 1907 has both.)

[Robert McFarland]

Doesn't it seem a little bit out of place for this car's trucks to have Carter-like "wings"?Photos and Rudnick's drawings show these during the Eames era,but not afterwards.Figuring the photo was 1890 or after,wouldn't this detail be significant?

[Jim Courtney]

Robert,

The 300 series coal cars were built in the fall of 1882, the big Tiffany reefers were built by St Charles the following year. Both series of cars were likely delivered with the new Westinghouse air brakes. I think the photo dates from about 1883 to 1884, because the locomotives on the train above, on the Palisades, haven't been renumbered to the new 1885 UP specifications.

So I think this is a period of transition, as the new UP management reorganizes both the Colorado Central and the South Park. The truck sideframe outside brake hangers (the "wings" you refer to), begin to disappear from all the older cars about this time, and thereafter brake beams are hung from the frame. Perhaps during this transition it was discovered that the new air brake rigging didn't work well with brake hangers attached to truck sideframes.

Chris,

By this time the UP owned the Central outright and had a controlling interest in the South Park. The UP management would have operated the two railroads as subsidiary properties of one railroad, the UP.  Just as South Park freight cars and locomotives would roam the UP as far as Utah and Idaho, the Central cars likely roamed all of the South Park divisions. Per diem charges wouldn't apply, as the UP would be charging itself for car rentals.

Consider an enlargement of the double header climbing toward Alpine, above, in the same image:



The 3rd and 5th cars, both 5 stake coal cars, are also likely Colorado Central cars headed back toward Clear Creek (I don't think the South Park owned any 5 stake coal cars). And the 6th car, the boxcar with the three men atop, looks shorter, possibly a 24 foot Central car as well.

Ron, I'd also like to hear your thoughts.

[Robert McFarland]

Jim,the car is Union Pacific 3210 and the truck is near the woodpile.Why would this car have a truck  like that in 1890 or later?

[Jim Courtney]

I'm sorry, Robert, I misunderstood.  I thought you were referring to the Litchfield coal car behind the Tiffany reefer.

You're right.  The Litchfield coal car 3210 was photographed at Pine at least in 1895, maybe later.  I stand corrected, as obviously there was nothing incompatible about air brake rigging of the day and brake beams hung from side frame extensions.  Good pickup!  It looks like on the South Park, if something wasn't broke, they didn't bother to fix it, no matter how old it was.

Jim

[Robert McFarland]

It was that post that helped.I've looked at that photo hundreds of times and never noticed that detail before

[Ron Rudnick]

Jim:
As for there being a difference between the trucks of the UP built 27' cars and the 30' Peninsular cars, I would suspect that there probably is.  After all the 30' cars had a capacity of 20 tons over that of 14 tons.  
But when building models we only have three choices, the CC and the DSP&P "A" and "B"
At present I have half a dozen 24' Ohio Falls cars on the work bench.  The closest looking truck is the DSP&P 27' truck, which is way too big.  

As for #3250, it was acquired from the South Park & Leadville Short Line, and possibly built by the United States Rolling Stock Company

[Ron Rudnick]

Chris:  
As Jim posted the UP was running the show.  They had no qualms about running CC cars into South Park territory and vice versa.  
There has long been a taboo about the Colorado narrow gauge interchanging cars.  The truth is that they did interchange cars.  
One great resource is the Hallack Lumber Company book collection at the Colorado Historical Society Library.  I think in all there are close to 100 books, many of which record their shipping and receiving record which quite often list the railroad and car numbers, destination to and from and what was loaded or unloaded.
I regret that I have not been able to spend very much time searching these books, as the few notes that I have are fantastic.    
Example CC coal car #1573 brought in a load from Kenosha in January, 1886, CC #1581 Kenosha 7/87, other locations, bringing in loads Pine Grove, Buffalo, Boreas
They also exchanged cars with the D&RG.  Cars Received at Palmer Lake
7/29/88:  CC#1605, Coal, El Moro to Denver, DSP&P #24339, Merchandise iron, Bessemer to Burnham
8/7/88:   CC1566 and DSP&P #24127 Bullion, Pueblo to Mtn. City
And later, after the Kansas Central and Utah & Northern were converted the UP shipped many of their narrow gauge cars to Colorado to be used on the Colorado lines.
Photos on p.324 Pictorial of the Baldwin Branch shows a number of coal cars, including one CC coal and several U&N coal cars.