Trucks - CCRR, DSP&P, and ???

[Michael York]

I would like to revise my DSP&P Type A/Litchfield/12t trucks.  I plan on incorporating the lessons learned from the UP/14t/Type C trucks: 24" wheels, journal box shape, and probably copy over the swing motion details unless there's better info out there.

I'd also like to work on the Colorado Central trucks.  I have previously prepared a version in 1:20.3 as well as scratch built some with styrene in O scale, but I never had a good handle on the columns.  I'd like to know what they looked like and their arrangement relative to the spring plank, arch bars, and tie bar.

I would love to know what you think are the best photos of these trucks as well as every other pair used on the DSP&P, CCRR, DL&G, UPD&G, and C&S.  Including passenger car trucks, as I've long wanted to re-create the Barney & Smith trucks with what call their "heart shaped" hardware.

Thank you,
Michael

[Jim Courtney]

Morning Michael.

It's good to hear that you are moving forward with both the 12 ton Litchfield trucks and the original 3'-4" wheel base Colorado Central trucks. I'm going to need quite a few of the Litchfield trucks in Sn3 and have a couple of 24 foot TLS kits for the C.C./UPD&G/early C&S boxcars, that will need the CC trucks in Sn3.

I really like the way the 14 ton UP trucks you produced look with the PBL 26" wheel sets. But I agree that 24" wheelsets will be most appropriate for the CC and Litchfield trucks. The only 24" diameter wheelsets that I've found in Sn3 are by NWSL, product number 37791-4:




I found that Walthers is selling off their entire inventory on sale, at a price of only $2.79 for four axles!!   https://www.walthers.com/sn3-shoulder-axle-nickel-silver-wheelset-24-quot-88

As the normal price is $17.95 for four axles, I've ordered enough for 10 sets of trucks. As these are shoulder axle wheelsets, I will have to forward to you the various measurements (axle length, wheel face to axle end, axle shoulder diameter, wheel diameter and flange height, tread width, etc.).  I will be happy to once again be the beta-tester for the Sn3 versions, as I really, really want these trucks in Sn3 . . .

As for photos, the best photo of the Litchfield 12-ton truck is still the Idaho Springs flat car photo:




For what it's worth, TLS has produced the Litchfield trucks in Sn3 as cast brass kits:




I haven't found any good, clear photos of the C.C. trucks with the single large plank spring. Since Rod Rudnick drew plans for these trucks in his "Modeling Guide", perhaps he can direct us toward suitable photos. Then again Chris "Clear Creek" Walker may have some in his collection . . . how about it Chris??

[Michael York]

Nice find on those wheelsets!  I have a stash of the 24" and 26" versions in On3...but they weren't anywhere near as good of a deal as you found!

If we can't find a better photo of the CC trucks, I'll guestimate the details using the Car Builder's Dictionaries and White's Am. RR Freight Car.

Thanks!

Michael

[Jim Courtney]

Hi Michael,

My NWSL Sn3 24" wheelsets arrived. Yep, you can beat a price of 70 cents/wheel set!!

Here are some measurements, using my micrometer:

Axles
     Length overall:                              0.915"
     Length of shoulder:                       0.100"
     Diameter (between wheels):         0.095"
     Diameter (shoulder):                     0.065"
     Wheel face to end distance
          varies (uh-oh):                         0.110-0.125"

Wheels
     Diameter--tread:                           0.375"
     Diameter--flange:                         0.420"
     Thickness, total:                           0.090"
     Thickness, flange:                        0.025"
     Width of tread:                             0.065"

Hope you can make these work in Sn3!
___________________________________________

You asked for ideas of other DSP&P/CC/DLG/UPD&G/C&S trucks, particularly passenger trucks:

In Sn3, the only passenger trucks we have are the brass ones on Overland brass passenger cars and the R-T-O Jackson and Sharp 5' wheel base trucks from PBL. Keith Hayes and I have modified the latter to approximate C&S trucks.

What we really need are the trucks used on baggage cars, R-P-Os and combines that had inside hung brake shoes.
According to the passenger car folios, they came in wheel base lengths of both 5 foot and 5 foot-6 inches.



Both R-P-O 13.


The Mail-Coaches 40-43 are shown with 5'-6" wheel base trucks. Number 40 had outside brake beams, while 43 had inside hung brake shoes.

Trucks with 5'-6" wheel bases, with outside brake beams, seem to be common on many of the older coaches.

Perhaps Ken Martin can help us out here, this is his forte--perhaps he even has some drawings.

The other truck that would be useful is the 6'-0" wheel base Pullman trucks, used on the narrow gauge sleepers that ran on both the C&S and D&RG lines. They were also used on C&S coaches 61, 62, 78, 79, as well business car 911.


Coach 62

I think that I have drawings of this truck from an old Model Railroader article.


I will try to find more photos and post them

Jim

                 

[Ken Martin]

Jim,

From what I can tell the 5’ truck had outside brake shoes and the 5’6” truck had inside hung brakes. The 5’6” trucks were the new standard and I believe were used to replace 5’ trucks as they wore out or maybe as a car had a major rebuild.  The photo I have of #40 shows it with a 5’ truck while #42 has a 5’6” truck. You can’t always trust the folios as #13 shows a 5’ truck and clearly has a 5’6” truck.

The 6’ truck came with the Pullman sleepers and coaches 78,79, 59 and one other destroyed in the South Park days.  59 for some reason lost the 6’ truck and was downgraded to 2nd class.  

There are five C&S passenger truck I am aware of (13, 20, 70, 71, 911). I have measured four of them. Here is a drawing of the 6’ truck with #911. I will have to rework and dimension the others if needed.

Ken Martin

[Jim Courtney]

Thanks, Ken, great info.

Yes, I found the folios confusing, creating more types of trucks than existed.

So your point is that the C&S NG passenger fleet rode on basically 3 types of trucks: 5'-0" wheel base trucks with outside brake beams, 5'-6" trucks with inside hung brake shoes (that extra 6" was required to squeeze the brake shoes between bolster and wheels) and the long 6'-0" wheel base former Pullman sleeper trucks with outside brake beams. Well . . . that should make Michaels job a lot easier!

So that I've got it straight, the folios list the "modern" coaches 70-76 as having 5'-0" wheel base trucks, like 70 and 76:





But coach 73 in the mid 1930s had trucks with inside hung brakes:




So these must be replacement 5'-6" trucks, correct?

Michael, we really need both the 5'-6" trucks and the Pullman 6'-0" trucks in all three scales . . .

[Michael York]

Good stuff guys!  Thanks!  

There are three passenger car trucks I've really wanted to create:
1) Barney & Smith - good stuff survives thanks to the Carson & Colorado cars.
2) The strap iron Jackson & Sharp trucks a la the M&SV combine at CSRM (presumably J&S or Billmeyer & Smalls trucks)
3) The Pullman 6' trucks

The 5'6" C&S trucks have caught my attention because they looked unique.

Michael

[Ken Martin]

Jim,

Remember the folios were drawn in 1923 and most photos we have are from the ‘30’s so there would have been changes.

You have the three types right plus the tourist cars originally had a 5’ arch bar truck. I don’t have a picture of one. Maxwell had one listed but I didn’t find out about it until after Bruce passed away.
Also there were variations on trucks due to different manufacturers. An example are 70 and 76 both from St Charles had different journal box covers and the twist on the coil springs were reversed. And 26 and 62 had non-standard 5’6” trucks.

Yes I think the 73 had replacement trucks.

Michael, I have a C&S standard drawing for the 5’6” truck if interested.

Ken Martin

[Jim Courtney]

Thanks Ken,

You have the three types right plus the tourist cars originally had a 5’ arch bar truck. I don’t have a picture of one. Maxwell had one listed but I didn’t find out about it until after Bruce passed away.


Is this the Maxwell plan to which you are referring? Maxwell labeled it C-115, originally C-15, drawn in 1956:


Sorry, the plans are too big for my scanner!

The excursion trucks look to be a variation on a swing beam truck. These are the best two photos that I have:





Seems like someone posted a high res photo of an excursion car on the Forum, but I can't find it. Todd Hackett perhaps??

So Michael, a fourth C&S passenger truck might be in order . . .

[Ken Martin]

Jim,

<Is this the Maxwell plan to which you are referring? Maxwell labeled it C-115, originally C-15, drawn in 1956: >

No I was referring to a photo of one of the tourists car trucks.

Ken Martin

[Todd Hackett]

Jim Courtney wrote

...Seems like someone posted a high res photo of an excursion car on the Forum, but I can't find it. Todd Hackett perhaps??...

I don't think so. I just looked through my South Park, Clear Creek, and C&N folders, and the only observation cars where the trucks are clearly visible are Woeber cars on the C&N, which probably aren't the same trucks. The best I found on the C&S was this one captioned to be in Silver Plume and dated August 1920, where the trucks are a bit fuzzy:

[Chris Walker]

Excursion car trucks in a L.C.McClure shot  
https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/77489

lesser quality here
https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/13201

Freight trucks: DL&G era
https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll21/id/3681

and don't forget the 025

[Michael York]

The Carson & Colorado had a series of Barney & Smith passenger cars which were either sisters or cousins to the South Park's #3-5.  IIRC, the C&C Baggage-Mail-Smoker cars were 40' cars (like #4) while the coaches were 40'6" (like #3 & #5).   Several of these cars survive, the best known being Ward Kimball's coach.  The C&C ordered additional trucks from Barney & Smith.

Carson & Colorado Business Car #2 has been restored.  It originally rode on Barney & Smith trucks.   Today, it is sitting on a pair of trucks which match the B&S truck design.  The pedestals are copies made by the V&T, but only difference is the caster's marks.

Barney & Smith's factory is midway in between where I grew up and where I live now, so I have a soft spot for B&S.

The B&S truck clones under C&C #2:

From:  https://carsoncolorado.com/historic-route/historic-roster/cc-business-car-2/