South Park System Timeline

[Darel Leedy]

This is a work in progress. Looking for suggestions on how you would like to see this set up and operate.

[Chris Walker]

I propose that there be a "sticky" thread of a DSP&P/CC/UPD&G/DL&G/C&S "Timeline", not only of the corporate stuff but also the nuts and bolts stuff in regard to dates of introduction or changes.  

There has been a prolific amount of detailed information presented here during the C&Sn3's brief existance.   Stuff that I can't keep in my head partly because I get quite excited finding new stuff and my wider interests are much greater than this "stuff ".  Juggling it all and growing older doesn't help either.

A thread at the top of the page would be useful for quick reference, to cross-check comments or corrections with the notation to the side citing the source would also be useful, therefore allowing corrections of mis-information that litters our Book collections.

Something that can be added to, either by Darel on receipt of Email or Copy/Paste the list with insertion of new stuff by anyone, the previous enties being deleted by Darel.

[Jim Courtney]

Perhaps separate timelines, one for corporate history, one for equipment (locomotives, freight and passenger cars), another for trackage/stations/buildings and the like.  Or a single timeline with these aspects in different colored text?

Should the South Park system and the Clear Creek lines be separated or comingled?

Jim

[Mike Trent]

There might also be a case made to separate model content from actual historical content, although happily on this board the crossover of one to the other is both welcomed and valued.  

[Darel Leedy]

Still not sure how to make this work in a discussion forum format. It may be easier to maintain as a feature of the blog. I'll check into different options.

[Chris Walker]

All I really wanted,  was the ability to find a date something was introduced or aquired, arising from frustration of having to search date clarification at multiple locations such as internet, photo archive or books etc.  

This could be the introduction of the UP influence, lettering schemes or when certain rolling stock aquisitions were made.  Even the dates of abandonment of the various sections of line.  The number of posts back through the Forum and the Blog as well have this information scattered widely so collating it all is a mission.   Have you ever uttered the phrase "just where did I see that",  so why no calls for the same with cronological indexing?

I'd rather see it here as a Sticky Thread simply as putting it over on the Blog just makes for a little more hassle given the way Blogspot loads up for me.  Yes, I am aware that others do use differing OS and/or devices.

[Robert McFarland]

Poors Memorial DSP&P pp388-389 has a timeline for construction and abandonment.Ron Rudnicks books for freight cars.Hayes Hendricks website for passenger cars.DSP&P Memorial for Loco Roster/timeline and there is a roster in the  files section of DSP-P Yahoo site including tidbits of info on each engine.I believe it was compiled by Ron Rudnick.

[Darel Leedy]

That sounds fine with me Chris. Make a post here to start it off with how you think it should be displayed. Then anyone wishing to add to it will copy and paste the entire message into a new post and add his contributions. I will then delete the previous message. Therefore, only one or two messages should ever be displayed here.
As an Administrator, I can delete, move or change the post date of all messages. I cannot edit the message content.
Once we get this rolling, I will delete all of the unnecessary previous comments.
We can explore options for other topics as Jim and Mike suggested after we get this worked out.
As an aside, Mike Trent will be set up as a co-administrator. Mike brings a wealth of experience having moderated the NGDF for many years.

[Jeff Young]

I think it's more important to get it started than anything else.  If we just add to it bit by bit, then there's no big upfront cost for anyone.

Future contributors should feel free to reorganize this anyway they see fit.

Corporate

1898 C&S formed from UPD&G and DL&G.
1908 CB&Q purchased C&S from Hawley interests.
1912 C&S sold its 50% stake in the Colorado Midland.
1920 D&RG -> D&RGW
1928 C&S petitioned ICC to abandon Waterton to Leadville (denied 1930).
1935 C&S petitioned ICC to abandon Denver to Climax (granted 1937).

Clear Creek

Platte Canon

1909 Silica branch constructed.
1916 Silicated Brick Company failed.
1933 Morrison branch salvaged.
1937 Waterton to Como abandoned.
1940 Silica branch "abandoned" (although intermittent service remained).
1941/42 Silica branch salvaged.

High Line

1910 Boreas Pass service suspended.
1911 D&RG Blue River branch leased to C&S, but not operated after January.
1913 Boreas Pass service resumed.
1915 C&S petitioned ICC for abandonment (denied).
1923 D&RGW petitioned ICC for abandonment of Blue River branch (granted).
1924 D&RGW Blue River branch salvaged.
1937 Como to Climax abandoned.
1938 Como to Climax salvaged.
1943 Climax to Leadville standard gauged.
1962 Climax to Leadville saw last use of steam power on Class I US railroad.

Gunnison

1910 Alpine Tunnel closed.
1910 Trout Creek pass closed.
1911 D&RG took over operation of Baldwin branch and Parlin to Quartz portion of mainline.
1915 Gunnison and Parlin water tanks removed.
1922 Track between Schwanders and Garos salvaged.
1923 Rails between Parlin and Gunnison and between Quartz and Hancock sold.
1924 Buena Vista to Hancock abandoned.
1926 Buena Vista to Romley salvaged.
1932 D&RGW/C&S petitioned ICC for abandonment of Parlin to Quartz (granted 1934).
1934 Parlin to Quartz salvaged.
1937 C&S Baldwin branch sold to D&RGW.

I think the Alpine Tunnel engine house fire was 1906, but I'm not 100% sure.
Anyone know when the Boreas Pass engine house burned?

[Robert McFarland]

I seem to remember reading recently that the Boreas Pass Enginehouse burned in 1909.How long did the one at Dickey last?

[CBryars2]

Alpine burned in 1906, confirmed from various authors.

Cameron

[Chris Walker]

Thank You Jeff, for starting this off, the breakdown by line segments seems a good idea.  
I'm having some time issues at the moment, collating info. out books just isn't possible right now.   And Cameron, your item is just the sort of stuff desired.  

I'd hope contributors will cross check or verify rather than go on memory otherwise there is the chance "we" will create a falsehood.  Darel has enough to do without cross-checking as well.    

I hope that there will be just posted information, if you want clarification of an issue either provide your "evidence" or ask in a new thread, after some discussion the info would be corrected or amended, hopefully.

I have read of the Alpine Enginehouse Fire, not that I committed to memory the exact dates but always remember that the stone Boardinghouse was included.  This however isn't the case as there is one photo showing the Enginehouse complete yet one end of the Boardinghouse roof either burnt or collapsed (snow?) indicating at least one half wasn't habitable before the Enginehouse Fire.  I won't include the picture here as this post eventually will be deleted.

[John Schapekahm]

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[Jeff Young]

Hi John,

There’s no such thing as "scrupulously right".  Many sources disagree on certain things.  My source is Doris B. Osterwald, who was a pretty careful author.  That being said, the Morrison branch wasn’t the centre of her focus, so Mac Poor is likely a more credible source in this instance.

I think we should double-check each others’ assertions.  That’s what a community is about.  That’s not to say we should put up “off the top of my head” dates — which is why I quite pointedly did not include the Alpine Tunnel engine house fire date in the list, but rather as a question at the end.  (To characterise the rest of my contribution thusly does me a disservice.)

Anyway, since Mac Poor is likely the more authoritative source in this instance, I think we should just replace my Morrison entries with yours.  In other cases, we might want to list both information sets with attributions so readers can decide on their own.

But if no one posts for fear of being wrong, then we won’t accomplish anything.  (Which is OK too, I guess.  This is a nice-to-have for me, not a must-have.)

Cheers,

Jeff.

On 6 Nov 2015, at 18:53, John Schapekahm [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jeff Young wrote

I think it's more important to get it started than anything else.  

Sorry Jeff, but I couldn’t disagree with you more. Getting it scrupulously right is more important than anything else. Slapping entries haphazardly “off the top of one’s head” into a timeline promoted by this Forum does incalculable damage, to the legitimacy of the timeline, and, to the repute with which this Forum is held. No one should just assume someone else will fact check for them. Case in point, your entry “1933 Morrison branch salvaged.” Mac Poor would respond to your entry with a “wrong” and a “wrong again.” Mac says the C&S took up 2/3 of the Morrison Branch in 1934 and removed the remainder in 1938.
The timeline I developed a while back for the Morrison branch, courtesy of Mac Poor (primarily), goes like this:
1874 Denver, Sixth and Larimer to Bear Creek Junction* +6.67 miles
1874 Bear Creek Junction* to Morrison +9.71 miles, total 16.38 miles
1878 Soda Lake Spur +0.25 miles, total 16.63 miles
1878 Garfield Quarry Branch +2.75 miles, total 19.38 miles
1911 Morrison line extension +.2 miles
1919 Morrison Line reduced -.41 miles
1919 Garfield Quarry branch taken up  -2.75 miles
1919 Soda Lake spur taken up -.25 miles
1925 Last mixed service
1934 Morrison line reduction to Lakeland -6.31 miles
1938 Remainder of Morrison line beyond Sheridan Junction taken up -3.45 miles
If it’s not worth doing right, then it’s not worth doing it all
John
___________________
* Later, Sheridan Junction

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[Lee Gustafson]

In the interest of solid research, sources should be cited. Given that statement, it is also understood that sources may not agree and that should lead to more research to determine the most accurate information for all involved. This is not to discount intention but to provide accurate information and maintain forum integrity.

Lee Gustafson

[Jeff Young]

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[Jeff Young]

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[Jim Courtney]

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[Jeff Young]

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[Jim Courtney]

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