Modifying Bachmann On30 mogul for C&S #9 model
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Modifying Bachmann On30 mogul for C&S #9 model
 
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Re: Modifying Bachmann On30 mogul for C&S #9 model
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Re: Modifying Bachmann On30 mogul for C&S #9 model
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Re: Modifying Bachmann On30 mogul for C&S #9 model
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Re: Modifying Bachmann On30 mogul for C&S #9 model
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Re: Modifying Bachmann On30 mogul for C&S #9 model
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Re: Modifying Bachmann On30 mogul for C&S #9 model
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Re: Modifying Bachmann On30 mogul for C&S #9 model
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Re: Modifying Bachmann On30 mogul for C&S #9 model
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Re: Modifying Bachmann On30 mogul for C&S #9 model
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In reply to this post by Robert McFarland
Robert, that is, in my humble opinion, a widely believed misconception. If it is true that #12 and #13 were originally Cooke engines, then they were indeed drastically rebuilt by the UP identically to the drastically rebuilt Brooks engines. They were virtually identical.
This is a rebuilt Brooks engine, #22, circa 1900. It is dimensionally identical to #12 and #13 and accurate to C&S specs:  This, on the other hand is an unrebuilt Cooke engine, dimensionally accurate to Cooke specifications. Note how high the Cooke Boiler sits on the saddle.  The real #7:   |
Re: Modifying Bachmann On30 mogul for C&S #9 model
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This post was updated on .
Inspiring models, Mike!!
Of note, the original Cooke 2-6-0's had an uneven driver spacing, and the original Brooks 2-6-0's had an even driver spacing. When the two Brooks locomotives that became C&S 21 and 22 were rebuilt in the 1890's, the frames were rebuilt to an uneven driver spacing to match the Cooke locomotives. And when Cooke locomotives C&S 4-10 were rebuilt in 1900-1901, their frames were modified to give the same even driver spacing as the original Brooks locomotives. Cooke 2-6-0s 12 and 13 were also rebuilt (new boilers and domes) in the late 1890s or 1900, but during their rebuild, they retained the original Cooke uneven driver spacing, making them quite similar in appearance to rebuilt Brooks numbers 21 and 22. http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/42210/rec/2 Everyone confused now??  At any rate, one could take a model (in any scale) of C&S 21 or 22 and modify them into: 1) A Cooke 2-6-0 4-10 prior to the 1900-1901 rebuild (ie Mike's beautiful C&S number 7) 2) A Cooke 2-6-0 12 or 13 after re-boilering and new domes. 3) A Brooks DL&G or C&S locomotive 21 or 22 . . . as all three types of C&S 2-6-0's had similar frames with uneven driver spacing. I have three Sn3 Overland C&S 21's that I plan to use to do a 1901 Cooke number 5, a 1901 Brooks number 22 (like Mike's), and a 1909 Brooks number 21. I will have the advantage of lots of castings from Berlyn and The Leadville Shops that were not available to Mike in O scale, including UP style box headlights and brackets, long and stubby wood pilots, McConnell stacks, 6" air pumps, 20 ton trucks, etc. Our other Mike even has 3-d printed Cooke domes for the early DSP&P, DL&G, C&S Cookes, designed to fit the Overland 21-22 boilders: https://www.shapeways.com/product/BTY9JSDDV/cooke-2-6-0-domes-sn3?optionId=57783845&li=marketplace. I owe Mike Trent a debt of gratitude, for showing me that I don't have to pick a specific year to model the C&S--the physical plant never changed that much, so's 1901, 1909 and 1924 are all possible on the same generic or specific C&S layout or diorama. Only the locomotives and rolling stock changed to mark the passage of time.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA |
Re: Modifying Bachmann On30 mogul for C&S #9 model
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Re: Modifying Bachmann On30 mogul for C&S #9 model
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Re: The "Un-rebuilt" Cooke 2-6-0's (11, 12 and 13)
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This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Mike Trent
I've come to think of the Cooke 2-6-0's that became C&S 11-13 as the "un-rebuilt Cookes", as have some writers, meaning they never received the massive re-building into what would become C&S class B-3-C 2-6-0's (4-10), which involved larger two-course boilers, extended smoke boxes and new frames with longer wheel base and even driver spacing. The "rebuilt" Cookes were altogether much larger and more powerful locomotives.
But has Mike has pointed out, the un-rebuilt Cookes were of course also rebuilt to some extent either in the 1890's or in the early 1900's. All three lost their original Cooke domes with decorative rings, replaced with flat topped "derby-hat" domes. They also received new steel sheathed cabs and at some point extended smoke boxes, making them close cousins of the two rebuilt Brooks moguls, 21 and 22, in appearance. But when did this rebuilding occur? All at once or slowly over the years as the locomotives were shopped. Was only 12 rebuilt or as Mike posits, number 13 as well? Why not number 11? Who did the rebuilding, the UP shops during the receivership or the new C&S once it was up and running? I went to the files section and pulled up the C&S locomotive folio sheets, compiled in 1903. The "roster" on the second page was most enlightening--remember this is data as of 1903:  C&S 11 and 13 were considered a two engine class, with smaller (presumably original) 14 x 18 cylinders. The folio sheet for numbers 11 and 13 list a locomotive weight of 54,000 lb, and tractive effort of 11,200 lb. C&S 12 in 1903 seems to be a single engine class, weight the same as 11 and 13, but TE was 12,850 lb, presumably from the larger 15 x 18 cylinders. None the less, all three locomotives were lumped together as class B-3-A when that system was adopted in about 1906. The rebuilt "cold-water" Brooks engines, C&S 21 and 22 are shown as slightly heavier at 55,000 lbs, with TE of 13,535 lb. They both had slightly small drivers, 38" as compared to the 40" drivers of the original Cookes. They show up in pre-C&S photos of the late 1890's and had to have been rebuilt by the UP shops prior to the formation of the C&S. These two would be assigned class B-3-B. One should note, if the engine weight and TE of the 11 and 13 represent the original specs of the Cooke moguls as delivered, then prior to 1900-1901, the two rebuilt Brooks engines were the heaviest passenger power, for at least a few years. They show up with both DL&G / UP numbers and C&S numbers at the turn of the century, as power for the South Park division passenger trains from Como to Leadville. That changed when Cooke numbers 4-10 were rebuilt by the C&S in 1900-1901. These were virtually new locomotives, much heavier, with engine weight of 64,000 lb, 5 tons heavier than the original Cookes, tractive effort of 16, 351 lb, the same as the "modern" D&RG C-16 class. It's no wonder these 7 locomotives, later classed B-3-C, would become the main passenger locomotives on the C&S narrow gauge, with the light B-3-As and B-3-Bs assigned to branch line runs like Morrison, Alma, Black Hawk-Central City and the Fish Trains. So, if Mike is correct, when did number 13 get rebuilt to the same specs as number 12 -- it hadn't happened by the time the 1903 folios were compiled. And why not number 11 as well, lack of need? There are only a few photos of C&S 11, 12 and 13 in their final "modern" state, posted below.  Morrison, about 1910. John Hallinan collection, in the Klingers' C&S Clear Creek Memories . . .  Denver 1921, Perry photo, DPL.  Denver 1921, Perry photo, DPL. They all pretty much look the same to me, nearly identical to the rebuilt Brooks 21 and 22. The one major difference is that the injectors appear to be inside the cabs of 11, 12, 13, instead of just ahead of the cab as on 21 and 22. So, were 11 and 13 also rebuilt between 1903 and 1910, or maybe just number 13? Anyone have hard documentation?
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA |
Re: The Moguls.
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Re: Modifying Bachmann On30 mogul for C&S #9 model
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In reply to this post by El Gringo Grande
Great example of modeler's ingenuity and enterprise, El Gringo!
 With this printed stack, a conversion of the Bachmann 2-6-0 to a turn of the century locomotive becomes possible:  The Leadville Shops has O scale decal sets to complete the lettering. Precision Scale has O scale castings for the stubby wood pilot and the C&S style arc headlight as well. Or you could go back even further in time and convert the Bachmann engine to 22 before it was 22:  As discussed above, DL&G 162 has been rebuilt by the UP shops into what will later be B-3-B class 22. A couple of years later, it would have a new paint job and lots of new friends:  It is about 1900 in Como and C&S 22 is one of the two heaviest passenger locomotives on the South Park Division. I'd be curious how much printed grain or fuzz is on the final part when you get it -- perhaps you could post photos and do a product review.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA |
Re: The "Un-rebuilt" Cooke 2-6-0's (11, 12 and 13)
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Re: The "Un-rebuilt" Cooke 2-6-0's (11, 12 and 13)
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Re: The "Un-rebuilt" Cooke 2-6-0's (11, 12 and 13)
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Re: The "Un-rebuilt" Cooke 2-6-0's (11, 12 and 13)
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