"Modern" C&S Freight Car Underframes / Bolsters

[Jim Courtney]

Todd Ferguson asked the following questions on the C&S Model Offerings . . . thread. Rather than bury this discussion in the product announcement thread, I thought it best to start a new thread on that topic.

Todd asked:

Jim, I was looking at the C&S rolling stock book today by Poole and Martin.  I have been thinking about the phase I, II and III Cars and On3 models.  Is it a valid assumption to assume that all the Phase I cars used the same bolster and stringers?  Same for Phase II and Phase III.  So would the overall width of a Phase II boxcar and gondola underframe be the same over the side sills?  This would seem logical to me for each Phase I, II and III if they used the same bolster hardware per Phase and sill timber size per Phase.

The reason I have been thinking about this all
Is that I am wondering if I used a San Juan Phase II boxcar body for a Phase III boxcar can the Phase II boxcar underframe be used as an underframe for a Phase II gondola.  It would seem logical to me, but I would be interested to hear the views of those more knowledgeable than me.

The related question is are the Phase II and Phase III boxcar bodies the same height from the bottom of the sill to the top of the siding?  I believe the Phase I boxcars have siding slightly taller due to the deeper 12” side sills.  I wish I could get a set of Mr. Poole’s car drawings...  That might answer a number of questions.

Todd:

The info I used in the discussion of the various phases of C&S car construction is based on information in a Derrell Poole article in Outdoor Railroader magazine, February/March, 1995. This table summarizes Derrell's points:

 


Note that Derrell divides the freight cars built after 1897 into four groups. All the St Charles built cars are in Group 1 (my "phase 0" designation). Derrell's groups 2, 3 and 4 (cars constructed by C&S shops, 1902-1910) correspond to Harry Brunk's phases 1, 2 and 3.

Your specific questions:

1. Since both the phase 2 cars and the phase 3 cars (Derrell's groups 3 and 4) both used the Bettendorf Axle Co.'s bolsters, they would have to be the same width, as the BAC bolster was a prefab casting of constant width. The phase 2 freight cars used 9" tall side and center sills, while the phase 3 side sills were only 7" tall. All of the phase 1 cars (coal, flat, box) used ASF bolsters, also a cast bolster of constant width, designed for use with 12" side sills.

2. A phase 2 San Juan box body on a phase 3 Grandt underframe, would have car sides and ends that are 2" too tall. Both the phase 2 and 3 boxcars had the top of the fascia the same distance from top of rail.  Since the phase 3 car used 7" side sills rather than 9" side sills, the bottom of the side sheathing was 2 inches higher, from the top of the rail:




Phase 2 boxcar has lower edge of sheathing 24" above top of rail, while on phase 3 cars the lower sheathing edge is 26" above top of rail. Total height for both cars (top of rail to top of running board) is the same. So, you'd likely need new styrene bodies for the phase 3 boxcars on Grandt SUF.

3. The phase 1 box cars built in early 1907 are confusing. They used ASF bolsters and trucks designed for 12" side sills, but were constructed with 9" side sills. A spacer of 3" thickness was mounted to the bottom of the 9" side sill at the ASF bolster attachment:




Note that boxcars 8065 and 8066 are anomalies, experiments using deep 12" side sills on a boxcar, not used on the production runs of phase 1 boxcars. The production phase 1 boxcars had a distance from the top of rail to lower edge of side sheathing of 24", same as the phase 2 boxcars. The spacers can be seen in this photo of RGS 8512, former C&S 8072:




The phase 1 boxcars are actually a smidge less tall than the phase 2 and 3 cars. The phase 1 cars had wooden roofs while phase 2-3 had identical 13 tap outside metal roofs when built.

I think it is possible to use a phase 2 boxcar body (San Juan in On3, Berlyn, now PVC in Sn3) to build a phase 1 boxcar. I'm trying this in Sn3. The same phase 2 underframe could be used for the phase 1 boxcar modifying the bolster attachments with scale 3x5 spacers. However, brake rigging differed between the two phases: Phase 1 used the smaller NY cylinder, the phase 2 used the larger Westinghouse cylinder. And coupler buffer castings were different.

4. As to using a phase 2 boxcar underframe for a phase 2 coal car, that had not occurred to me (we have injection molded kits of the phase 2 coal cars in Sn3). The width of the San Juan underframe may be too narrow, depending on the thickness of the boxcar sides in the kit.  And the end beams protruded a bit from the side sills.

Nothing about building C&S freight car models is easy.

Mike Trent may want to weigh in here, as he has solved some of these issues with his beautiful On3 models.

Jim

[SteveG]

Hi Jim,

Great summary, thanks! I used the Outdoor Railroader article to try to  figure out what the ASF bolster looked like for some 3D models of the 1902 cars, but had to guess at several aspects. Does anyone have a pointer to actual diagrams of the ASF bolster?

I did not know the phase 1 cars used the smaller NY brake cylinder, so would love to find diagrams for that too--I was under the impression that they used Westinghouse cylinders, and based the model on data in a very early series in NG&SLG on brake systems.

Of course, it makes perfect sense that the early cylinders would have been the NY versions, given the persistence of the NY air pumps on the locomotives.

Steve Guty
Lakeway, TX

[Jim Courtney]

Hey Steve,

Check out the Poole drawings that I sent you. They have drawings of the trainline and brake rigging/cylinders/levers for the phase 1 coal cars. Phase 1 boxcars were the same. They were pretty much similar to St Charles cars.

The Outdoor Railroader article only had drawings of the St Charles "double plate" bolsters and the BAC bolsters. I think I have some of Derrell's old C&S Connection O scale white metal cast ASF bolsters somewhere. If I find them, I will include them in my next care package to Texas.

[Jim Courtney]

I still haven't found a drawing of the ASF bolsters, but I did find Derrell Poole's O scale cast ASF bolsters in one of my parts boxes:




The L-shaped brackets on each end were attached to the underside of the side sills with two bolts, separated by a rounded structural "fin".

On the 1902 coal cars and flat cars, a single bolt penetrated the side of the side sill about 6" above the bottom of the sill, further tying the bolster to the sill.






I haven't found a similar single bolt on the phase 1 boxcar sheathing.

[Mike Trent]

Todd, attached is a photo of a boxcar that came with some miscellaneous C&S stuff from a friend in Missouri. He told me it was built from a Grandt kit. I was doubtful about that, and eventually took a real close look at it.  I was sure Grandt had never produced a phase 3 boxcar kit, and I was right. What this is, is an On3 San Juan Phase 2 boxcar body on a Grandt steel frame. Grandt produced the Phase 3 Coal Gon, a Phase 3 Stock Car, and a kit of just the Steel Frame. It turned out great, but I have no idea who built it. My friend bought it at a "Train Show" in St Louis. You will find Bob Stears drawings of the Coal Gons in our archives here, and also in the Gazette.

Hopefully, San Juan will reissue Grandt's steel frames, and maybe even a kit of the Hybrid like this one.

Thought you might like to see this.

[Mike Trent]

Way back in the 80's when I was just starting to build up a C&S train in On3, I built four boxcars using wood kit Tomalco bodys from Sweede Norlin's D&RGW 3000 Series kits. Three of the four were Phase 3, and one of them was a Phase 1. My only resource at the time was from the "Up Clear Creek" series by Harry Brunk (Gazette).

Sure, the dimensions are a bit off, but what was I supposed to do? Wait for somebody to make a kit? No thanks. I needed boxcars for my roster, and built them using what I had, and what I could get. Thanks to San Juan's Phase 2 kit, I was able to eventually add to my roster. I think I have eight boxcars now.

[Todd A Ferguson]

Mike,

Similar car was built by Randy Rieck for his Chalk Creek layout.
I believe Keith Wiseman sells a Phase III boxcar kit with a laser cut body.  I don’t have one to compare though.

Todd

[SteveG]

Thanks, Jim, that helps! Here's where I'd gotten to previously, based on the very partial photos I'd seen:



It stands to reason they would have narrowed and flanged the center section, to make it more like an I-beam, to save material, and possibly increase strength.

FWIW, the box car diagram on p. 219 of the Narrow Gauge Pictorial Volume VIII seems to show that bolt-hole. Some of the dimensional data is illegible, but it does appear to indicate 2'0" from the railhead to the bottom of the sheathing, which would appear to be at odds with the side sill, which looks to be 9", with the 3" shim for the bolster.

Steve Guty
Lakeway, Texas

[Jim Courtney]

I can't tell you how many times I've looked at that drawing, always thought it was a St. Charles car. But you're right, it's an erection drawing of the 1907 (phase 1) boxcar.

The 24" height from rail to bottom of the sheathing is correct. Without the shims at the bolsters the car would have been like 8065 and 8066, with 12" side sills, the bottom of which (and the sheathing) would have been only 21" above the rail.

[Norm Acker]

Hi group, can someone please refresh my memory as to which NGSL issues have Dr. Stears' excellent C&S coal car (not cinder car) drawings? My issues are kind of spread around, darnit. And I haven't found a searchable index link that works. Thanks! Norm

[Randy Rieck]

May/June 2017.

[Todd A Ferguson]

Jim, if you are interested in selling a pair of those On3 bolster castings I would be interested...

Best,
Todd