Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

[Ken Martin]

Here is a drawing of a Hanrahan car from an 1893 English magazine.

A larger copy can be downloaded at:
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Engineering_1893/12/15

Ken Martin

[Jim Courtney]

Thanks for posting the drawing, Ken.

Have you any written references as to the paint scheme of the cars as delivered?

[Ken Martin]

No I don't.

The article doesn't mention color and if it did it would probably be for the manufacturer as it was at the Columbian Exposition.

Ken Martin

[Konrad Schreier]

Bob,

Thanks for sharing your images of the series of P:48 Hanrahan reefers - those are great looking models!  I am chugging along on the On3 St. Charles car, and along the way have been talking to Sheldon at Coronado Scale Models.  Discussing the 26' Tiffany I have car planned next, he mentioned you may have worked on a project to create masters for the UP 14 ton trucks used on the Tiffany cars before they were rebuilt.

Jim Courtney tells me that, in On3, Ron Rudnick suggests using the MacLeod “T-3” truck, available from Foot Hill Model Works (and Precision), but it looks a little squashed to me, and a correct side frame would look better.   This has me toying with mastering the 14 ton trucks on my own, if they have never been done.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on the matter,

Konrad

[Jim Courtney]

Seems to me that this might be a good 3-D printing project, would allow 14 ton, "type C" trucks to be printed in both On3 and Sn3 scales.

A Shapeways artist offers printed 12 ton Litchfield "type A" trucks, so far only in On3/On30: https://www.shapeways.com/product/3Q3ZHAL74/on3-dsp-p-type-quot-a-quot-litchfield-trucks-2-pair?optionId=42624499




Perhaps Mike or Keith will take the hint / challenge . . .

[Robert McFarland]

Those 3d Litchfield truck frames are done by Michael York of Cincinnati,Ohio.He has a blog spot called The South Park Line.He has built several DSP&P/C&S/CC passenger and freight cars from scratch out  of styrene.He might do the type "C" frames.He also likes Oahu R&L.

[Robert Stears]

Thanks for your note Konrad.

 

I don’t know about the 14 ton trucks other than to say the McCloud T-3 trucks are probably your best bet.

 

Actually, I just started working on the laser cutting design work for the 26 ft. DSP&P boxcars and 26 ft. Tiffany reefers yesterday when your e-mail arrived.

 

Bill Meredith and I have just finished the laser cutting designs for 27 ft. DSP&P boxcars in 1:48 (On3). These are wood (various thicknesses of basswood and 0.8 mm thick plywood) with interior detail and laser cut frames and floors. I was planning to use the Coronado brass detail parts and trucks for these South Park house cars.

 

We have also just finished 1:48 (On3) D&RG 30 ft. “4000 series” boxcar laser cutting designs (c. 1905 Fred Jukes era). We plan to use a combination of Grandt Line and San Juan detail parts for these D&RG boxcars. With minimal work, these models can be easily converted to their 1890s or 1930s appearance. Of course, many/most of the D&RGW MOW cars were converted from these “4000 series” 30 ft. boxcars – but that is a different rabbit hole far afield from my South Park roots.

 

None of these projects were conceived as commercial endeavors, but rather as models for my empire and to satisfy my desire to build up multiples of the South Park boxcars in various lettering schemes. However, if you and any other members of the group are interested, I can cut more wood “kits”. I am using the word “kit” pretty loosely here because these would be “body only” wood kits in plastic zip lock bags with pretty basic photographically based “USA Today” style big picture instructions or a CD with me demonstrating how to build the “kits”. I have absolutely no idea how much to ask for any of these “kits” and detail parts would not be included (although I would tell you exactly what is needed).  I imagine however the cost would be based upon the amount of wood used. These “kits in a bag” would however include water slide decals printed from my designs and screen printed by rail graphics.  

 

Very glad to hear you are well down the road with the 1898 St. Charles reefers. Always a favorite of mine. I build all six of them in Sn3 when I was in grad school – a great stress busting project that kept me out of the bars and away from the psychiatrists.  I have always hoped to do build several of the St. Charles reefers in On3. Perhaps someday soon. Anyway, please send along photographs of your work in progress as well as the finished product as I really enjoy seeing and learning from your work.

 

Regards,

Bob

 

 

PS: Thanks for your comments on my P:48 reefers. Anybody who thinks that top notch model building is dying out should spend some time with the P:48 folks. Fantastic work being done in that arena by interesting and very talented people who are welcoming and collaborative.

RS

 

 

 

From: Konrad Schreier [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 10:14 PM
To: Robert Stears <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

 

Bob,

Thanks for sharing your images of the series of P:48 Hanrahan reefers - those are great looking models!  I am chugging along on the On3 St. Charles car, and along the way have been talking to Sheldon at Coronado Scale Models.  Discussing the 26' Tiffany I have car planned next, he mentioned you may have worked on a project to create masters for the UP 14 ton trucks used on the Tiffany cars before they were rebuilt.

Jim Courtney tells me that, in On3, Ron Rudnick suggests using the MacLeod “T-3” truck, available from Foot Hill Model Works (and Precision), but it looks a little squashed to me, and a correct side frame would look better.   This has me toying with mastering the 14 ton trucks on my own, if they have never been done.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on the matter,

Konrad

---

If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:

http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Modeling-Early-C-S-Refrigerator-Cars-tp7612p8087.html

To start a new topic under C&Sng Discussion Forum, email [hidden email]
To unsubscribe from C&Sng Discussion Forum, click here.
NAML

[Jim Courtney]

Actually, I just started working on the laser cutting design work for the 26 ft. DSP&P boxcars and 26 ft. Tiffany reefers yesterday when your e-mail arrived.

Bill Meredith and I have just finished the laser cutting designs for 27 ft. DSP&P boxcars in 1:48 (On3). These are wood (various thicknesses of basswood and 0.8 mm thick plywood) with interior detail and laser cut frames and floors.

This is great news, Bob!

I would plead with both you and Bill to cut wood sets for each of the three cars in S scale as well. Complete kits are not (IMHO) necessary. Wood parts in a zip-lock bag would be fine. Having started a couple of Leadville Shops Sn3 kits, it is the laser cut wood body (underframe/floor, sides/ends, double board roof and fascia) that is the demanding part of these cars, do-able in styrene, but difficult to reproduce as accurately as with a laser.

I can only speak for myself, but I've already acquired a stash of S scale TLS detail parts from Doug Junda for these projects, including extra frets of South Park brass detail etchings, cast resin Litchfield bolsters, "type A" trucks in brass and lettering sets.

If these cars are never offered as kits in Sn3 by TLS, I will likely build them in styrene (when I get around to it), but the laser cut wood components would render the fine detail of the milled siding and double board roof far more convincingly than in using available styrene sheet materials. That's to say it is appealing, not as a time saver, but rather as a means to a more perfect model.

Please, please, don't make me switch to On3, just to have these beautiful laser cut wood boxcars / reefers!!!

[Robert McFarland]

Will these "kits" include interior detail?Could you please give some info on the "cast resin Litchfield bolsters"?

[Jim Courtney]

Robert,

The "cast resin Litchfield bolsters" are part of The Leadville Shops Sn3 kits. I believe Bob is planning to use the Coronado brass bolsters (like in Konrad's construction photo above) on his On3 Litchfield boxcar and the 26 foot Tiffany that he is planning.

[Robert Stears]

Sorry, I don’t know about the cast bolsters. The Sn3 kits offered by TLS were a project I was not involved with other than the decal design. I have not built any of the Sn3 TLS kits or seen the Litchfield bolsters you mention. Best to check with Doug Junda regarding availability.

 

All the boxcars I mentioned in today’s earlier e-mail will all have interior detail. The reefer will not have interior detail or operating side doors. None of the “kits in a bag” I was discussing (in either scale) will have detail parts.

 

I will post photographs of the test cutting built up models when they are finished.

 

Regards,

RS

 

 

 

From: Robert McFarland [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 7:05 PM
To: Robert Stears <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

 

Will these "kits" include interior detail?Could you please give some info on the "cast resin Litchfield bolsters"?

---

If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:

http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Modeling-Early-C-S-Refrigerator-Cars-tp7612p8093.html

To start a new topic under C&Sng Discussion Forum, email [hidden email]
To unsubscribe from C&Sng Discussion Forum, click here.
NAML

[Konrad Schreier]

<quote author="Robert Stears">

Very glad to hear you are well down the road with the 1898 St. Charles reefers. Always a favorite of mine. I build all six of them in Sn3 when I was in grad school – a great stress busting project that kept me out of the bars and away from the psychiatrists.  I have always hoped to do build several of the St. Charles reefers in On3. Perhaps someday soon. Anyway, please send along photographs of your work in progress as well as the finished product as I really enjoy seeing and learning from your work.

RS

Bob - glad to hear you are enjoying this thread.  Your South Park boxcar project sounds great - I have actually accumulated the hardware, but need the body, so I am tickled to hear about this  

Meanwhile back at the car-barn, I have been plugging away at the St. Charles project.  After you have a floor, the next thing to do is add the framing, followed by the end blocks and the sub-roof.  



These old fashioned wood cars are basically just a hollow block with scribed sheathing on top.  If you remember the old Central Valley HO kits, the Yea Olde Huff-and-Puff cars are just scaled up versions.  Making a smaller car is just a matter of removing the excess material.  I use 5 minute epoxy to build the cores, it makes sure the joints won't fail over time.  



Once the core is complete, the next step is to add the weights.  These are Pine Car Derby bits from Woodland Scenics.



And finally we get to add something you will see - the roof.  I have scribed drainage grooves in the kit's scribed 6" roof boards, thinned the visible edges of the 1/16" material to .050" and added small bits to close the gap at the roof peak.   I was able to use carpenter's glue on one side, but the other needed more 5 minute epoxy, as the sub-roof had some dips that needed filling and the epoxy - which does not shrink appreciably - does the filling at the same time it bonds the parts.



The large overhang you see in this image is the result of the 8'6" roof width of the St. Charles cars - once the 1/16 scribed siding is on and the double roof trim boards are in place, it will look a lot better.

An aside on wooden car construction that many of you may have hard about but that I wanted to mention for those new to these kind of kits, is the use of clear acrylic varnish to pre-seal the parts.  I use Minwax, but any similar product will work.  The varnish is brushed into all the exterior parts, working along the grain, and allowed to dry.  The resulting parts sand to a fuzz-free finish and are much less prone to handling damage.



That's all for now, I have to get back to Easter preparations, but I hope all will enjoy this little 'egg'

Konrad

[Robert Stears]

Great work.

 

From: Konrad Schreier [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 8:50 PM
To: Robert Stears <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: Modeling Early C&S Refrigerator Cars

 

<quote author="Robert Stears">

Very glad to hear you are well down the road with the 1898 St. Charles reefers. Always a favorite of mine. I build all six of them in Sn3 when I was in grad school – a great stress busting project that kept me out of the bars and away from the psychiatrists.  I have always hoped to do build several of the St. Charles reefers in On3. Perhaps someday soon. Anyway, please send along photographs of your work in progress as well as the finished product as I really enjoy seeing and learning from your work.

RS

Bob - glad to hear you are enjoying this thread.  Your South Park boxcar project sounds great - I have actually accumulated the hardware, but need the body, so I am tickled to hear about this  

Meanwhile back at the car-barn, I have been plugging away at the St. Charles project.  After you have a floor, the next thing to do is add the framing, followed by the end blocks and the sub-roof.  



These old fashioned wood cars are basically just a hollow block with scribed sheathing on top.  If you remember the old Central Valley HO kits, the Yea Olde Huff-and-Puff cars are just scaled up versions.  Making a smaller car is just a matter of removing the excess material.  I use 5 minute epoxy to build the cores, it makes sure the joints won't fail over time.  



Once the core is complete, the next step is to add the weights.  These are Pine Car Derby bits from Woodland Scenics.



And finally we get to add something you will see - the roof.  I have scribed drainage grooves in the kit's scribed 6" roof boards, thinned the visible edges of the 1/16" material to .050" and added small bits to close the gap at the roof peak.   I was able to use carpenter's glue on one side, but the other needed more 5 minute epoxy, as the sub-roof had some dips that needed filling and the epoxy - which does not shrink appreciably - does the filling at the same time it bonds the parts.



The large overhang you see in this image is the result of the 8'6" roof width of the St. Charles cars - once the 1/16 scribed siding is on and the double roof trim boards are in place, it will look a lot better.

An aside on wooden car construction that many of you may have hard about but that I wanted to mention for those new to these kind of kits, is the use of clear acrylic varnish to pre-seal the parts.  I use Minwax, but any similar product will work.  The varnish is brushed into all the exterior parts, working along the grain, and allowed to dry.  The resulting parts sand to a fuzz-free finish and are much less prone to handling damage.



That's all for now, I have to get back to Easter preparations, but I hope all will enjoy this little 'egg'

Konrad

---

If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:

http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Modeling-Early-C-S-Refrigerator-Cars-tp7612p8096.html

To start a new topic under C&Sng Discussion Forum, email [hidden email]
To unsubscribe from C&Sng Discussion Forum, click here.
NAML

[Lee Gustafson]

Robert,

I would like to obtain the "kits" of the 26' DSP&P boxcar and reefers as well as the 27' DSP&P box car. I tried emailing back channel but the emails have been kicked back. Please contact me at

bagustaf at aol dot com

Thanks.

Lee Gustafson

(apologies to the group)

[Robert McFarland]

My interests are similar to Lee's except I am only interested in the 26' DSP&P Litchfield boxcar

[Paul R.]

Bob,
 I would like several of each of the bare bones kits as well. love all these threads. Paul R.

[Konrad Schreier]

A little more progress on the St. Charles carbody.  All the side and end sheathing has been trimmed to fit, glued together and glued on, with the side sheathing overlapping each end by one board width.  In preparation for final trimming the last scribe on each end has been filled with Milliput, an epoxy based filler.  Keeping the edges sharp on a wooden model is a key to getting them to look good, and this will make sure that if the trim ends up exactly on the scribe, it will not result in a rounded corner.  The sharp eyed will see that the inside of one corner has been filled too - the joint ended up on a scribe and was too wide, so it was filled and a finer line was rescribed.



For those interested in process, these are the tools and materials used in cleaning up any minor fuzz in the groves of the scribed siding and filling the corner scribes as described above.

 

Next up will be scribing the doors, adding the protective plates and trimming out the eaves.  If anyone has seen correct hinges please let me know, at present it looks like I need to make a master and cast the 12 needed.

Konrad

 

[Konrad Schreier]

And with a little more work, we arrive at a complete basic carbody.  The doors are now scribed into the siding, the eave trim has been added and the roof trimmed to final size.   I think it looks a lot like the builder's image Jim posted earlier in this thread.

The trucks are just there to hold up the body for photography - the bolsters have not been added yet.  The double eave trim gives the car an interesting top heavy look, even without all the roof hardware.  No idea why they did that.



Now its time to work on the details.  I had planned on adding Coronado's brass Sams link and pin couplers, but now I am waffling - should I use Tower knuckles?  And if so do I need to add the 1911 Safety Appliances Act grabs and such?  And what are those boxes mounted over the draft gear in the builder's photograph - adjustable vents?  They don't show in the folio plans, but those are very simplified.

And then there is the lettering - the builder's photo shows a unique naming convention, so try for that or something later?

Konrad

[Jim Courtney]

The double eave trim gives the car an interesting top heavy look, even without all the roof hardware.  No idea why they did that.

The double fascia at the top of the car side was a common feature of the St Charles house cars and the "Phase 1" boxcars of 1907.  Seems to have something to do with the inside Murphy metal roof.


I had planned on adding Coronado's brass Sams link and pin couplers, but now I am waffling - should I use Tower knuckles?  And if so do I need to add the 1911 Safety Appliances Act grabs and such?  

The St Charles reefers lost their original link-n-pin couplers about 1903.

Safety appliances didn't come along until 1912-1916, and when installed included ladders at right car sides and ends, like the ladders on the 1909 steel under-frame reefers (only taller, so commercial parts will likely be too short). So knuckle couplers with simple grab irons, like in the photo, would be correct from about 1903-1912/15. Seems a shame though, not to be able to couple this new car to your Tiffany, to demonstrate the height difference.


And what are those boxes mounted over the draft gear in the builder's photograph - adjustable vents?  They don't show in the folio plans, but those are very simplified.

I think they are just the wood buffer blocks at the bottom of the car end--the St Charles house cars never had cast coupler pockets, just wood buffers with some sheet iron on the outside, to accommodate the center truss rod bolt heads.


And then there is the lettering - the builder's photo shows a unique naming convention, so try for that or something later?

The cars seemed to keep their original St Charles lettering from 1898 until about 1912-16. They were probably re-lettered with the block monogram "C&S" then. It is unclear whether they ever carried the late 1920s "Button" scheme, as they were off the roster by 1929.

C-D-S used to make a dry transfer lettering set in O scale for the original St Charles lettering in black, the line acquired by Ozark Miniatures: http://www.ozarkminiatures.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=14616

But they now appear out of stock.

Rick Steele is enlarging/printing some of his HO scale St Charles boxcar decal sets to S scale for me. Perhaps he can do the same for you, and enlarge the sets to O scale, and print them in both black and white (sides black lettering, end reporting marks white).https://www.labellemodels.com/hon3-p-1306.html?osCsid=5tmd3054g6hbp2i7j1563ltbm4

You'd still need to come up with a black "Refrigerator", but the lettering is pretty much railroad Roman.

Hope this helps.

[Konrad Schreier]

Jim -

Thanks for the helpful comments - unfortunately,  if the St. Charles cars got their knuckle couplers in 1903 they would have had them before the 27 footers were rebuilt.  I am sure the 27 foot cars were refitted later as well, but I am not going to tear the draft gear apart on mine.  

This raises an interesting question about the mixed fleet issue.  Pictures after 1903 show Sams link and pin couplers, so did the C&S segregate cars on their divisions based on coupler fit, make up trains based on coupler type or fit slotted knuckles on the early knuckle conversion cars so they would be interoperable with the older equipment, or a little of all that?   Maybe the St. Charles cars had slotted knuckles installed on '03?

Great information on Ozark Miniatures- I will reach out to them.  

Oh, and I realized based on your comment that I was misinterpreting grabs as larger objects.  Yes, simple buffer blocks are all that is needed.

Thanks again for helping with this project,

Now to build up the resolve to scratch the bolsters 😱

Konrad