Kaslo & Slocan Rwy connections

[Dave Eggleston]

Dave, welcome!

The only other "mainstream" book I know that covers the K&S is Gerry Doekson's Railways of the West Kootenays. It is more of an overview of all the lines that were located in the Slocan around Arrow, Slocan and Kootenay lakes. It is very good but doesn't have a detailed roster for the K&S.

Mike, in fact Turner's book has a picture of the rotary on the RGS because there isn't a good full image of the rotary on the K&S. Looking through my CPR Slocan images I thought there was a good one of it in operation on the standard gauge replacement for the K&S but I so far can't find one.

[Mike Trent]

Hi Dave. Thanks, I remember now about that picture. But that picture does show that the two rotarys were much the same, bookends even. I have tried to talk Dave into finding a model of the RGS rotary for his layout, but as yet, no luck....

You guys might compare notes. The K&S community may be even more loosely populated than the C&S!

[Rob Hupfield]

Hi, Mike. When the CPR took over the K&S in 1911, the rotary rebuild included re-gauging the trucks and substantially strengthening the body. Even the 'huge' K&S #3, an outside frame consolidation, only weighed 38.5 tons - and by then the CPR's standard gauge locos and tractive ratings were starting to get pretty significant. The old Leslie plow was assigned to the CPR's southern Kettle Valley Railway line in the Boundary District of BC, and worked the Farrow Hill and the insane Coquihalla Pass where there could be 50ft of snow in a winter. Not a bad career history for a little rotary from the RGS!

[Mike Trent]

Hi, Rob, I believe from conversations with Dave that the K&S also had a small number of Cooke 2-6-0's similar but larger and newer than the Cooke Moguls built in 1881 for the DSP&P (later C&S). The K&S Moguls had different driver spacing to better support the larger boiler and firebox but otherwise look quite similar. I believe they were built in the 1890's.

[Rob Hupfield]

Hi Mike, the K&S had two Baldwin Moguls, Class 8-22D, built 1890, bought second-hand from the Alberta Railway & Coal Co. Lovely locies. Plus a big Baldwin 10-26E outside-frame 2-8-0, acquired second-hand from the DM&KC Rwy. I've got copies of the Baldwin order sheets. Plus the ex-RGS #1 rotary, a home-built steam-powered speeder affectionally named the "Flying Squirrel", and later something called an "Automopat", probably a newfangled converted automobile. That was the fleet.

[Mike Trent]

Thanks for the clarification!

[Rob Hupfield]

Image: The K&S 'Skyline Limted' runs westbound to the riches of Sandon, BC, in 1896 very near Sproules. Lovely example of a Baldwin Class 8-22D. The K&S had two of these, with cab and other differences.
All of the K&S freight rolling stock from 1895-98 was bought new from the St. Charles Car Co. I had thought the C&S type 0 stock was very similar, pre-1900 ACF lineage, but perhaps I'm wrong. My research into St. Charles narrow gauge car construction and truck castings appear to be pretty standard pre 1900.

[Rob Hupfield]

End detail of a St. Charles Car Co. flat built 1895-98. 1911 photo during reconstruction of the narrow gauge K&S to CPR standard gauge between Three Forks and Kaslo. The flatcar has a new reinforcing overlaid deck, no doubt for the new rock duty. The notched deck corners are evidence of previous corner posts, probably as a gondola given the brake valve location, but possibly as an outside-framed boxcar. The rest looks original. Note the square link and pin coupler shape with the characteristic top knuckle. The Sandon Museum has one. St Charles used standard iron castings for narrow gauge cars and trucks prior to 1900. In the background you can see K&S mogul #2, with her characteristic peaked cab roof, in still service while the CPR rebuilt the narrow gauge r.o.w. to standard gauge.

[Rob Hupfield]

Ted Wurm photo of a St. Charles Car Co. boxcar at Silverton, August 1939.

This car shows all the spotter's guide hits of a St. Charles Car Co. build from the pre-1900 period.
End beam details. Note the broken coupler.
Outside brake beam details, including iron "stirrup" style brake beam hangers.
Standard truck castings, including bolster columns and "H" style journal box covers.
Body bolster truss bars, nut/washers visible below the car siding.
Truck bolster truss bars, and bolster end castings.
3-spring pattern matches K&S truck pattern.

references:

Slim Gauge News, Fall 1974, pg 37-40.
Article includes dwg and car material dimensions.
Truck wheelbase ref 4'-2", differs from other 48" refs.
caption: (Top left: SN box car number 2006 on the Gladstone Branch, 8-15-1938.
Osborn photo from Gerald Best Collection.)

NG&SGazette, Mar/Apr 1981, pg 74-77.
Ted Wurm tells story of finding and photographing this car summer 1939 in Silverton.
caption: (Silverton Northern box car #2006 as photographed in 1939. This car was built by the
American Car & Foundry Company in 1899 and was formerly SG&N #1006. She was a
faded red color. Photo by Ted Wurm.)
Note: AC&F founded 1900, so St. Charles Car Co, build.

[tonyk375]

Rob's post of the shovel shows the rotary tender in the background just under the large rock hanging from the shovel.

Tony Kassin

[Dave Ferrier]

Rob

Do you know what model of the Marion did they have on the K&S?

Dave

[Dave Ferrier]

Hi Rob

Would you be willing to share the Baldwin order sheets? I just acquired two C&S engines early version of 5 and a 22 that I would like to convert. Do you have pictures of the Flying Squirrel?

Dave

[Dave Eggleston]

Dave,

I don't have the specific spec sheets myself for these engines but they should be in the digital SMU DeGolyer Collection here: SMU DeGolyer Baldwin Locomotive Works Engine Specifications

The original spec sheets are bound in books. You'll need to know the year they were built, and then located that book in the list. Then, know who they were built for and then find the page in the books indexes at the start--by customer name or by class + customer. It helps to know the Baldwin class for the engine to find the engine in question.  SMU specification explanation Explanations are also given in BLW catalogs that can be found online, also.

Scroll to the specification page and screen shot the image. Voila. Yes, a little tedious but you'll now have access to the spec sheets for BLW engines after 1869.

Know that these are the order sheets prior to engine construction. In some cases the specs are seen to be crossed out and info changed or added. Modifications can result in variations from what the spec sheets show.

[Rob Hupfield]

Hi Dave,
The image shows the Canadian Pacific Rwy (CPR) rebuilding effort circa 1911, after the demise of the Kaslo & Slocan Rwy. The K&S K&S was of course narrow gauge, and the CPR had to rework curves and enlarge cuts for standard gauge. The rework was between Three Forks and Kaslo. The K&S did not have a Marion steam shovel. The photo may show a CPR shovel or a contractor shovel. I don't know, but to me it looks like a Marion 40.
Hope this helps!

[Rob Hupfield]

Hi Dave,
Happy to, will dig up all three from collection and post here.
The two K&S Moguls were ex Alberta Rwy & Coal Co., which was being standard gauged at the time.
A curiosity was the original cab specs didn't say arched or peaked cab, so Baldwin delivered one of each.
The outside frame Consolidation was ex Des Moines & Kansas City Ry Co No. 9.
Cheers,
Rob

[Rob Hupfield]

Hi Tony,
The RGS Rotary No.1 that the K&S acquired Dec 29 1896 went on to serve on the CPR's southern lines post K&S including in the notorious Coquihalla Pass, where 50ft annual snowfalls were common. The photo may show the rotary tender, but I'm inclined to think the tender may have stayed with the rotary as it all went to be regauged to standard gauge, and the shovel tender might be just its usual tender. I'm always open to being wrong.
While we're staring at this pic, check again the bump or knuckle on top of the link & pin St. Charles coupler, that would've impacted with the metal strike plate on the car body. I've got a higher resolution image if desired. I'll also dig up the photo I have of the historic example at the Sandon, BC, Museum and share it here.
All the best,
Rob

[Rob Hupfield]

Hi Dave,
Also have a couple pics of the K&S "Flying Squirrel", the curious steam powered Buda railcar invented by the K&S genius master mechanic Clarence Stevenson. Will dig up and share here. The K&S also later had an "Automopat", a gasoline railcar that may have been based on an early Autocar automobile.
Cheers,
Rob

[Rob Hupfield]

There are examples of the same construction and truck castings of St. Charles Car Co. cars from Mexican narrow gauge rwys from this period. Actually some of the best photos.  
I can share photos and references here if there is interest.
My thinking here is simple: it's reasonable to assume a very large provider of narrow gauge rolling stock like St. Charles would use common castings and construction techniques across multiple customers at the same time. The evidence is pretty persuasive.
All the best,
Rob

[Rob Hupfield]

Copies of the original Baldwin order sheets for Dave and anyone else. K&S #1 and #2 were Class 8-22D 2-6-0's (ex Alberta Rwy & Coal Co #13-14). K&S #3 was a Class 10-26E 2-8-0 (ex Des Moines & Kansas City Rwy Co).

[Rob Hupfield]

Two pics of K&S locos in the wild...


John Agnew of  Railmaster Exports in New Zealand can put together an excellent Sn3 kit of the modernised Baldwin Class 8-22D for K&S #1-2. The 2-8-0 ET&WNC with extended smokebox closely matches K&S#3 except for the outside frames and 3-window cab. The rigid wheelbase and driver diameter of D&RGW K-27 #450 and #451 with slide valves are a close match if you want to kitbash.
Railmaster Exports:
<http://www.railmaster.co.nz/index.htm>