Help Identify this C&S Water Tank

[Jim Courtney]

I recently purchased this photo from a vendor on eBay:



I purchased it thinking I'd found a photo of Shawnee Tank, with a glimpse of the Shawnee depot in the background.  I thought "Platte Canon", because of RPO-Coach 43 behind the engine.  The RPO-Coaches were often used on the Denver-Leadville passenger.

But when it arrived and I could really examine it, I don't think it's Shawnee -- Shawnee depot had a hip roof, not a gabled one as this distant structure has.

And there is something odd about the train as well.  Road engine is B-4-D number 67, odd for the Leadville passenger train. And the RPO-Coaches were usually used with one of the express-baggage cars 1-4, not usually alone.

An earlier McClure view of the Denver bound passenger stopped at Shawnee, c1910, with baggage 1 or 2 and one of the RPO-Coaches:



So anyone know where the top photo was taken?

[Chris Walker]

Wrong Canon Jim, next one up!  That's the Idaho Springs Tank and Section House.  Nice Find!
The Coalcars in this picture are on the lengthened siding of Moscript&Hassell hence the hump, the Mainline is to the left in the weeds.  What looks like (in your picture) a Finnial on top of the Tank is actually a Handrail. Darel will like the Cabcurtains!



http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/42719/rv/singleitem 

[Jeff Young]

What’s the building in between in the 1941 shot?  

And idea of the period of the first one?  It must be post-1918 (bear trap) and pre-1939 (#43’s scrappage date), but I can’t narrow it down any further than that.  The dress of the passengers looks 1920’s to me, but I’m not very good at dating dress.

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Robert Stears]

One if the most interesting things about this group of two C&S photos recently offered on eBay is that all of the passengers appear to be black. Was this a chartered trip? Perhaps a church trip?

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 14, 2015, at 5:35 AM, Jeff Young [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

What’s the building in between in the 1941 shot?  

And idea of the period of the first one?  It must be post-1918 (bear trap) and pre-1939 (#43’s scrappage date), but I can’t narrow it down any further than that.  The dress of the passengers looks 1920’s to me, but I’m not very good at dating dress.

Cheers,
Jeff.

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NAML

[Jim Courtney]

Wow, Bob Stears is right. The passengers, even the guy on the tender, look to be African American. This photo was listed for sale separately from these other two, obviously taken on the same day, during an excursion up to the Loop and Silver Plume.

If so, then these photos may help date the first photo, Jeff:



I really like this photo. Aside from the obvious appeal for us C&S fans, it stands alone as a great photo on its own merits. The striking African American woman with the turban, stands in the door way of an excursion car with one marker, gazing at the mountains. A black gentleman in a pork-pie hat sits inside the car at the rear window. Five black youths, apparently bored with the scenery, loiter on the end platform. Some seem to be wearing those odd stockings or leggings that WWI doughboys wore. The conductor awaits time for departure to Denver--standing apart from the black passengers, he suggests the segregation of the era.

The depot in the distance is still in the light scheme. Rhode Island 62 still has a wood pilot and "intermediate" tender, so I would guess the photo to be early 1920s. The 62 is on the spot, on the crossover track between the mainline and the house track, with its Ridgeway spark arrestor folded down.

This photo was advertised as "Number 71 in Como", but  think it was also taken in Silver Plume, on the same day, by the same photographer:



The surrounding scenery looks like the north end of Silver Plume, with the 71 spotted on the east end of the house track, just east of the depot. The spur to the coal bin and stock yard is just visible near the tender. Number 71 also has its spark arrestor folded down.

Makes you wonder, why all this heavy power in Silver Plume? Helpers on a multi-section excursion? Perhaps, as Bob speculated, a church outing? Or maybe some early NAACP type convention in Denver with a day trip up Clear Creek? Or maybe 62 and 71 are the power and helper on the Clear Creek local freight, the power spotted while the crews take lunch?

BTW Chris, if we have established that all three photos are on Clear Creek, why couldn't the top photo be Georgetown, the train westbound? Wasn't there a section house just west of the Georgetown tank?

Jim

[Jeff Young]

The civil rights movement has at least in part succeeded.  I stared at that first photo for half an hour trying to date it, with particular emphasis on the passengers' clothes, and didn’t notice they were black.  I am indeed colour-blind.

That photo of the back of the train is a real cracker.  Great mood conveyed through it.

BTW, which C&S passenger cars had windows in the back like that?

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Robert Stears]

It looks like one of the tourist observation cars so communally used on the excursion trains over the loop and on the Colorado & Northwestern. 

By the way, I have never seen anything about the C&S segregating its standard gauge or narrow gauge passenger trains. No "whites only" cars, sections of cars or bathroom signs in the depots, etc. Am I correct?

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 14, 2015, at 11:14 AM, Jeff Young [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

The civil rights movement has at least in part succeeded.  I stared at that first photo for half an hour trying to date it, with particular emphasis on the passengers' clothes, and didn’t notice they were black.  I am indeed colour-blind.

That photo of the back of the train is a real cracker.  Great mood conveyed through it.

BTW, which C&S passenger cars had windows in the back like that?

Cheers,
Jeff.

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NAML

[Jim Courtney]

Not sure about the narrow gauge, Bob, but the standard gauge C&S cars that ran through to Ft. Worth and on to Houston on the Burlington-Rock Island likely were segregated in the 1920s.  

Many Texas roads had depots with two waiting rooms for segregation.  For example, the Katy had two sets of standard plans for Oklahoma / Texas depots as compared to depots north of Oklahoma.  Same basic plans, the southern depots modified with extra waiting areas.

Jim

[Jim Courtney]

Here's some photos of C&S excursion cars, Jeff,


    Denver, 1903




                                                          The Loop, 1908




    Excursion somewhere, c1915

Sorry, not to slight anyone, but I can't remember where I obtained the photos, to properly credit the photographers/owners.

By the early 1920s, the excursion cars were used less and less often.

Jim

[Robert Stears]

Thanks Jim. Great shots. I need to build a string of these some day.

The last photograph is in "The Switzerland Trail of America" and listed as a Colorado & Northwestern excursion. I would like to learn more about the narrow gauge tourist specials that would run from Denver up past Boulder on the Switzerland Trail. Todd would know.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 14, 2015, at 1:07 PM, Jim Courtney [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Here's some photos of C&S excursion cars, Jeff,


Denver, 1903




                                                                         The Loop, 1908




Excursion somewhere, c1915

Sorry, not to slight anyone, but I can't remember where I obtained the photos, to properly credit the photographers/owners.

By the early 1920s, the excursion cars were used less and less often.

Jim

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[Chris Walker]

From what I understand, Colorado did not discriminate against Colour in Transportation or Lodging.


Jeff,  the Moscript & Hassell lumber shed, have a look here http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/3381/rv/singleitem/rec/14


Jim,  Georgetown had the SectionHouse on the Easternside (by Timetable * ) of the Tank and as Georgetown is close on a Nth/Sth alignment, if it was taken there, you would be staring right up the notch of Guanella Pass not the Devils Gate.  There is a very distinctive white rocky outcropping(scar) on the hillside above and left of the pole in your picture that shows up in many pictures of Idaho Springs including the 1941 shot.  That outcropping can be seen here on full enlargement. http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll21/id/10189/rv/singleitem

All in all, a very nice find especially the rare views of Silver Plume.

* Edit:Note that the Colorado Central used Westward/Eastward and the C&S changed to Northbound/Southbound.

[Jim Courtney]

Yes, I see now, Chris.  The north and south ridgelines are the same, just more trees in the later photo.  The "wide open spaces" feel of the 1920s photo threw me.  Guess I'm use to all your busy, busy, busy urban scenes of Idaho Springs.

Robert, I too would like 3 or 4 of the excursion cars in Sn3.  They were also used for day excursions out of Denver to Platte Canon destinations like Dome Rock picnics and trips to Crystal Lake for dances at the Pavilion.  Often, the trains were taken on to Pine and turned, waiting to return to Denver at the end of the day outings.

Do I see a possible Leadville Shops laser cut project in the works, in both S and O scales?  No complicated clerestory roof to fabricate!  The trucks could be a problem though.

Jim

 

[John Schapekahm]

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

[Robert McFarland]

Barney Ford was well known and respected in Colorado before the DSP&P was even a gleam in John Evans' eye

[Jeff Young]

That picture showing the in-between building (the lumber shed) is a real cracker.

Some Buda switch stands:



The centre one clearly has both the red circle and white rectangle above it, but the one to the left appears to be missing the red circle?


A tank-car unloading/storage facility?




A nice harp derail (with white double-diamond target) and another Buda further down-line:



Cheers,
Jeff.

[Jeff Young]

Thanks for the excursion car pictures.  I hadn't been aware of those prior to this.

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Chris Walker]

Classiest Worktrain I've ever seen,  you have get the Manpower to the washin somehow ASAP.


DPL Photo, Sadie George Diary, from Platte Canon Memories & Some, T&D Klinger. pg85

Excursion Cars: Switching at Pine Grove.


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/12029/rv/singleitem/rec/10

[Robert Stears]

Passengers work. Conductor watches. Classic.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:26 AM, Chris Walker [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Classiest Worktrain I've ever seen,  you have get the Manpower to the washin somehow ASAP.


DPL Photo, Sadie George Diary, from Platte Canon Memories & Some, T&D Klinger. pg85

Excursion Cars: Switching at Pine Grove.


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/12029/rv/singleitem/rec/10

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NAML

[Jim Courtney]

Okay, Chris and Jeff,

How do you guys get Nabble to post images as large as you have.  Note the images I posted above; Nabble always limits the size of the final image I post, to those at the top of the thread--same size, everytime.

Compare my images to the larger image that Jeff posted or the final two images that Chris posted.  What's the secret?  Do you resize the files somehow?

Jim
Thinking bigger in Poulsbo

[Jeff Young]

Hi Jim,

Are you posting JPGs?  

For images from DPL, I do a screen capture (which gives me a TIFF), open that in Gimp, do any further cropping and/or brightness/contrast enhancement, scale down to usually 1000 or 1200 pixels wide, and then do a Save for Web (using JPG).

I then use Nabble's Insert Image button (with the Resize radio button set to "None").

I haven't had great luck with replying via email when pictures are involved, so I only use that for text-only replies.

Hope this helps,
Jeff.