Harp stand target colours?

[Jeff Young]

I've got my Elliots/Budas mostly sorted, but what about the harps?  I've two main questions:

1) non-main-line targets: yellow or white?
2) main-line targets: red or same as non-main-line?

C&S Memories and Then Some shows a pair of harps stands in Como, one missing its target and one with a light-coloured double-diamond.  These are on yard trackage.

Then there's the well-known picture of the Jefferson water tank with a harp in the foreground.  Clearly a light target, but it's for the spur off the siding, so again non-main-line.

C&S Memories also has pictures of Alma and Fairplay harps, also with light targets.  (Interestingly, the Fairplay one has no double-diamond notches.)  Does this suggest that the C&S didn't differentiate between main-line and non-main-line for harps, or do Alma and Fairplay not count as they're not technically "mainline"?

(Digerness has a picture of another un-notched harp at Red Hill in 1929.  This one appears dark.  That might support the red-for-main-line argument, or maybe all the paint has just rusted off by 1929.)

The Alma harp target is darker than the snow behind it.  But snow could still be more reflective than white paint, so I'm not sure if that's data or not.....

[Jeff Young]

Ah ha!

I'm not sure what the deal is with the two gentlemen who have been added to this picture, but the harp stand looks original enough.  

Robinson, 1889, on the mainline, with a clearly light-coloured (one would even be tempted to claim white) double-diamond target:


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll21/id/3742/rec/86

(Also in The Mineral Belt Vol II, page 213.)

[Jeff Young]

Also in The Mineral Belt Vol II, page 137, a pair of double-diamond targets on harp stands in Illinois Park (coming into Breckenridge).

On the mainline, starkly light in colour.

[Bill Uffelman]

Interesting photo of roof walk variation including the notch for brake wheel bracket. Curved white trim is very obvious too.

Even though I have the books I love having all the pictures at hand on line.

Bill Uffelman Ocean View DE 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

---

From:"Jeff Young [via C&Sn3 Discussion Forum]" <[hidden email]>
Date:Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 3:16 PM
Subject:Re: Harp stand target colours?

Ah ha!

I'm not sure what the deal is with the two gentlemen who have been added to this picture, but the harp stand looks original enough.  

Robinson, 1889, on the mainline, with a clearly light-coloured (one would even be tempted to claim white) double-diamond target:


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll21/id/3742/rec/86

(Also in The Mineral Belt Vol II, page 213.)

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NAML

[Robert McFarland]

Are you talking about the 3-legged guy sitting on the brake wheel or the disappearing man standing on the coal pile?GHOSTS!!MONSTERS!!!!!Actually they are the result of people moving during the time it took to expose the photograph.There's at least one of them in the Jackson photo of DSP&P #3 in Chalk Creek Canyon near the town of Alpine.He's standing near the Bowers&Dure passenger car.

[Robert McFarland]

That couldn't be 1889-look what is pulling the train.

[Jeff Young]

> Actually they are the result of people moving during the time it took to expose the photograph.

I wondered if it were that, but I thought they’d look more smeared if that were the case.  Perhaps Jackson had some leeway to clean them up a bit on the negative -- although the removal of the 3rd leg certainly doesn't suggest he'd have much success with it.

Dave Grandt pointed me to this picture, which is even odder:


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/55675/rec/12

No target, but what is going on with the harp stand?  Is that paint on it, or some weird photographic processing anomaly?

The same picture includes this harp, whose flag has been doctored (although whether in the flesh or on the negative is hard to tell):



Cheers,
Jeff.

[Chris Walker]

Jeff,

this picture might help with what you're seeing colour-wise being on the D&RG and all.... 
I've noticed several McClure and McLean pictures that have been purposefully scratched to define certain parts better.



http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll21/id/8231/rv/singleitem/rec/31

[Jeff Young]

Chris, that picture might be even more interesting than you first guessed.

Note how the white sections are wider than the red, and, in particular, that they extend to the other side of the target rod, rather than to the center of it.

The two vertically-striped harp targets in Bob Richardson's collection show the same:


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/70158/rec/45

I don't know why I never copped on to that before.  But it strongly suggests that what I always thought was a confusingly placed background shadow at Alpine Tunnel really is a red/white, non-notched harp target on the DSP&P!


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/55336/rec/21

Jeff.

[Chris Walker]

OK Jeff, I'll raise the interest bar a little higher.  

this pictorial odyssey is of Beaver Brook on the Colorado Central.  I wonder just how many gunslingers rode the train to the "Diggings" as that target on the first Harp sure took a few hits.  Can't all have been from Hunters in the Canyon unless someone who lived there liked to practice between trains.


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/76167/rv/singleitem/rec/3


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/4897/rv/singleitem/rec/21


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/23218/rv/singleitem/rec/29


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/69882/rv/singleitem/rec/9


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/23199/rv/singleitem/rec/24


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/4894/rv/singleitem/rec/16


http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/72020/rv/singleitem/rec/11

[Jeff Young]

Indeed, most interesting, as they're all the one location.

~1875: harp stand with red/white oblong target
~1885: harp stand with white* double-diamond target
~1890: Elliot with white rectangular target above a red circular target

In fact, not only do they give us an ordering, the pictures also show that at least some existing stands were upgraded as the new standards came into place.  (We also know this from Alpine Tunnel, as later shots show a double-diamond there.)

So, given the lack of evidence to the contrary, I think Occam's Razor would suggest that most harps which survived into the 20thC would have had their targets "frozen" around 1890 with white double-diamonds.

Cheers,
Jeff

* I've received further info on another thread that yellow as a railroad signal colour didn't appear until around 1920, so I don't believe there's any evidence for its use in the 1800s.

[Chris Walker]

Jeff, and others...

Did you notice the Style of Harp also changed with colour/target?  
The final Harp mounted on the shorter Tie has "ears" at the notches consistant with the "18UP  RR77" and "18UP RY83", the earlier had a smooth arch reminiscent of the DSP&PRR harp..  Incidently the same White double diamond target with Black harp, the ("18UP  RR77") survived to the last day on the siding at I.S. just past the diamond crossing at the Gem Mills.

[Jeff Young]

Huh, I didn't notice the stand differences.

The pattern is consistent with Robinson (double-diamond target, eared stand), but not Jefferson or Gunnison (both double-diamond targets, but on notched stands).

[Jeff Young]

Right.  So I thought I'd see how well other data fits into this framework.

Chalk Creek: white oblong target, short stand, 1883.  DSP&P PS pg 9.
Alpine Tunnel: red & white oblong target, stand indistinct, early 1880s.  DPL.
Nathrop: red & white oblong target, stand indistinct, early 1880s.  MBII pg 286.
Central City: red & white oblong target, notched stand, 1880 - 1885 (Congdon-stack-era).  DSP&P PS pg 64.
Illinois Park: dbl-diamond targets, stands indistinct, 1883.  MBII, pg 137.
Boreas Pass: target missing, stand indistinct, 1885.  C&Sng pg 10.
Como: target missing, notched stand, 1889.  MBII, pg 70.
Robinson: dbl-diamond target, eared stand, 1889.  DPL
Breckenridge: white oblong or dbl-diamond target, stand indistinct, ~ 1890.  MBII pg 158.
Climax: dbl-diamond target, stand buried in snow, ~ 1890. DPL
Fairplay: white oblong target, notched stand, ~ 1895.  HLM&TS pg 82.
Alpine Tunnel engine house: dbl-diamond target, stand indistinct, 1896.  DSP&P PS pg 314.
Alpine Tunnel Atlantic siding: dbl-diamond target, stand indistinct, 1898.  DSP&P PS pg 117.
Pitkin: dbl-diamond target, eared stand, 1900.  HAT pg 166.  (Derail in same picture has white oblong target and notched stand.)
Dickey: target missing, notched stand, 1903.  DSP&P PS pg 402.
Romley: dbl-diamond target, eared stand, post-1908 (3rd mill location).  MBII pg 303.
Garos: dbl-diamond target, eared stand, 1910.  DSP&P PS pg 299.
Alma: dbl-diamond target, stand indistinct, 1914.  HLM&TS pg 87.
Como: dbl-diamond target, eared stand, 1915.  HLM&TS pg 37.
Kokomo: dbl-diamond target, eared stand, 1929.  MBII pg 201.
Red Hill: oblong target, notched stand, 1929.  MBII pg 274.
Kenosha Pass: oblong target, notched stand, 1932.  C&Sng pg 107.
Pine Grove: oblong target, notched stand, 1937.  C&Sng pg 142.

Most of these fit pretty well, with the last 3 being the notable exceptions.  The depot at Red Hill blew up in 1880, so perhaps that one was no longer maintained after that.

I was also troubled by the second Pitkin stand, until I realized it was the derail (which used oblong targets till the end).

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Chris Walker]

Great listing Jeff.

An aside to the colour, has anyone noticed that the vee-notches are not always perfect?  I'm wondering if these were a field modification of the oblong orgininal target to give better definition to the outline in various weather conditions?   I would be thinking if these were shop made then they would have been cut to a pattern or Drawing.   Tinshops were rather proud of their work so I doubt there would be any sloppiness in the notching.

Castleton.

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/44078

[Jim Courtney]

Jeff,

This is a fantastic collection of information.  At some point, please consolidate all your track work research, and perhaps collaborating with Chris, put together a blog post or a permanent collection of track data and photos in the files section.

Jim

[Chris Walker]

Another Colorado Central oddity,

As there is no T.O. board yet, was Forks originally Red, maybe because it was a Junction?  


http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/6346/rv/singleitem/rec/23

We know the Depot was Grey along with the Tank, the now White/Red dot target stands out "lighter"


http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/69875/rv/singleitem/rec/27


I'm not good on colours, but to me this target looks to be Yellow, the Gentlemen wearing the White Shirtcollar, note that stands out better, both are in the shadow too.  That Porter, would he wear a White jacket and Cap or is it Cream?


http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/77677/rv/singleitem/rec/33

[Jeff Young]

Forks Creek seems to be an outlier on so many different axes.

As to the yellow, the paint might have a different reflectivity than the fabric collar, even though they’re the same colour.  That being said, we could be well into the 1920’s in that picture when yellow started being used on other railroads -- so it may very well be yellow.

There also doesn’t appear to be a primary target (the red circle) under that one.  Everywhere else I’ve seen the light-coloured rectangles on an Elliot, there’s been a dark circular target underneath it.

[Chris Walker]

How's this for an oddity?
A DSP&P notched Harp with rounded ends of the Target.  Another view at Morrison also showed another same style there on the siding to TT track, backside of Depot.


http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/p15330coll22/id/10327/rv/singleitem/rec/818

[Jeff Young]

I'm glad you found that one Chris, as many of my books had pictures of Morrison, but none detailed enough to tell anything beyond that the stands had light-coloured targets.

Updated list (with the original Beaver Brook data points inserted as well):

Forks Creek: dark oblong target, notched stand, ~ 1875.  DPL.
Beaver Brook: red & white oblong target, notched stand, ~ 1875.  DPL.
Chalk Creek: white oblong target, short stand, 1883.  DSP&P PS pg 9.
Alpine Tunnel: red & white oblong target, stand indistinct, early 1880s.  DPL.
Nathrop: red & white oblong target, stand indistinct, early 1880s.  MBII pg 286.
Central City: red & white oblong target, notched stand, 1880 - 1885 (Congdon stack era).  DSP&P PS pg 64.
Forks Creek: double bullseye target, stand hidden, 1880 - 1885 (Congdon stack era). DPL.
Illinois Park: dbl-diamond targets, stands indistinct, 1883.  MBII, pg 137.
Beaver Brook: dark oblong target, notched stand, 1885.  DPL.
Boreas Pass: target missing, stand indistinct, 1885.  C&Sng pg 10.
Como: target missing, notched stand, 1889.  MBII, pg 70.
Robinson: dbl-diamond target, eared stand, 1889.  DPL.
Beaver Brook: dbl-diamond target, eared stand, ~ 1890.    DPL.
Breckenridge: white oblong or dbl-diamond target, stand indistinct, ~ 1890.  MBII pg 158.
Climax: dbl-diamond target, stand buried in snow, ~ 1890. DPL.
Morrison: white oblong target, notched stand, ~ 1895. DPL.
Fairplay: white oblong target, notched stand, ~ 1895.  HLM&TS pg 82.
Alpine Tunnel engine house: dbl-diamond target, stand indistinct, 1896.  DSP&P PS pg 314.
Alpine Tunnel Atlantic siding: dbl-diamond target, stand indistinct, 1898.  DSP&P PS pg 117.
Pitkin: dbl-diamond target, eared stand, 1900.  HAT pg 166.  (Derail in same picture has white oblong target and notched stand.)
Dickey: target missing, notched stand, 1903.  DSP&P PS pg 402.
Romley: dbl-diamond target, eared stand, post-1908 (3rd mill location).  MBII pg 303.
Garos: dbl-diamond target, eared stand, 1910.  DSP&P PS pg 299.
Alma: dbl-diamond target, stand indistinct, 1914.  HLM&TS pg 87.
Como: dbl-diamond target, eared stand, 1915.  HLM&TS pg 37.
Kokomo: dbl-diamond target, eared stand, 1929.  MBII pg 201.
Red Hill: oblong target, notched stand, 1929.  MBII pg 274.
Kenosha Pass: oblong target, notched stand, 1932.  C&Sng pg 107.
Pine Grove: oblong target, notched stand, 1937.  C&Sng pg 142.