Gondola End beams, side sills and other sills...

[Todd A Ferguson]

I have a couple gondola questions that I'm hoping this group can help me answer:

What are the dimensions of the end beams, side sills, intermediate and center sills used on the gondolas referenced in the latest Gazette article and drawings? I guess we are referring to these as Phase 00, 0, I, II and of course III are the steel underframe cars.
I understand from some past reading that there were some unusual sizes of timber used for some of these components.

We're the center sills spliced from shorter lengths of timber as the later D&RGW gondolas?

We're some sort of wood sills used with the Phase III cars to span the metal components and support the floor?

Are Darrell Poole's car drawings still available?

Regarding the Penninsular Car D,SP & P taper sill gondolas survivors into the C&S era and repainted as such at all?  When did they leave the roster?

The cinder cars that were produced by Cimarron Works in the past were built from which Phase of cars, what year and how many ?

Was there any there any other cinders cars built later, if so from what Phase of cars?

A lot here, but I'm trying to get my head around this and prepare to build some coal cars as I guess they were known.

Best,
Todd Ferguson
Harrisburg, NC

[Keith Hayes]

Todd, first off, the C&Steve calls these cars 'coals.'

Phase III cars had steel underframe so of a design common to coals, flats (made from coals), boxes, stocks and refers.I believe some details of the steel underframe are included at the rear of Grandt's Pictorial. The lateral members have a 'hand' that holds the wood side sill on these cars.

More and more folks are asking for copies of the Poole drawings. We miss Mr. Poole in these parts.

I don't know if the wood parts are spliced ala the D&RGW. I am intimately familiar with the Grande's 1903 cars. The splice served a couple purposes: it optimized the best of the wood species and saved weight, and it permitted repairs to the ends of the car without tearing up the middle. I have not seen a C&Steve car being repaired, which would provide a clue.

Others need to address you other questions and correct my misstatements.

[Jim Courtney]

I have a couple gondola questions that I'm hoping this group can help me answer:

First off, required reading is Dave Grandt's Narrow Gauge Pictorial VIII, by Derrell Poole and Ken Martin: https://www.amazon.com/NARROW-GAUGE-PICTORIAL-COLORADO-PASSENGER/dp/B001FBIJ38/ref=sr_1_34?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1472694875&sr=1-34&keywords=Narrow+Gauge+pictorial
The text and photos will answer most of your questions.

What are the dimensions of the end beams, side sills, intermediate and center sills used on the gondolas referenced in the latest Gazette article and drawings? I guess we are referring to these as Phase 00, 0, I, II and of course III are the steel underframe cars.

As I just happened to have my coal car plans with me at the hospital:
The phase 00, 0, and I (St Charles and ASF cars) had 5x12 side sills, 4x7 intermediate sills and 5x9center sills; end beams 6 x 11.
Needle beams 4x10, notched at ends for side sills.
The phase II (early Bettendorf cars) had 5x9 side sills, 4x7 intermediate sills and 5x9center sills; end beams 6 x 11.
Needle beams 4x10, notched (smaller than earlier cars) at ends for side sills.
The phase III (Bettendorf SUF) had 5x7 side sills, total 4 intermediate sills to support the steel frame cross members.


I understand from some past reading that there were some unusual sizes of timber used for some of these components.

Yes, see above.


We're the center sills spliced from shorter lengths of timber as the later D&RGW gondolas?

Not that I've seen on any plans.


We're some sort of wood sills used with the Phase III cars to span the metal components and support the floor?

Yes, 4 shallow intermediate sills, 2 on each side of the center I-beam.


Are Darrell Poole's car drawings still available?

Ask Derrell: http://www.7thstreetgroups.com/shops/


Regarding the Penninsular Car D,SP & P taper sill gondolas, any survivors into the C&S era and repainted as such at all?  When did they leave the roster?

Yes, quite a few:


The 40,000 lb capacity box and coal cars were Peninsular 30' cars. They were first painted in the "Colorado Road" scheme, some survived to get the C&S block lettering scheme. Most were gone or converted to flats or work service by the late teens.

Ron Rudnick sells a complete booklet of plans for all the DSP&P and CC cars that were inherited by the C&S. As he is a contributor here, you can probably contact him via this site's directory.


The cinder cars that were produced by Cimarron Works in the past were built from which Phase of cars, what year and how many ?

I don't recall any cinder cars by Cimarron Works. Could be wrong though. What scale we talking about? I don't much pay attention to stuff not S scale.


Was there any there any other cinders cars built later, if so from what Phase of cars?

Cinder cars were rebuilt from St Charles 4-board coals, and phase 2 coals, at different times, the two classes of cars had completely different side doors:

Some beautiful On3 models by Dr Robert Stears from past blog articles:


Rebuilt from St Charles coal car.


Rebuilt from phase II (1907 coal car).


Hope this helps.

Jim

[Todd A Ferguson]

Guys,

Thanks for the shared info.

I have the Grandt book around here somewhere but I couldn't lay my hands on it.
The hunt will continue.

Cimarron Works made the C&S cinder cars , I guess the earlier style, in On3.
I believe Rio Grande Models now offers a kit for those same cars in HO and S scales too.

Best,
Todd Ferguson
Harrisburg, NC

[Robert Stears]

I would also recommend Harry Brunk's original articles in the Narrow Gauge & Short Line Gazette and his subsequent article reprints in his two books published by benchmark publications.

Harry's classification system was a great help for me in making sense of different types of C&S coal cars from the perspective of the 1930's. However, as one if those crazy guys interested in (and modeling) the early C&S up to the beginning of the Great War in 1914, Harry's classification scheme was confusing as it lumped the 1897, 1898 and 1902 C&S coal cars into a single category - "Type 1".  For my C&S model empire (covering 1897 to 1914 but focusing on 1908) these three different early coal cars make up the majority of the coal cars on the property with just a couple "Type 2" and "Type 3" coal cars in block lettering hanging around. With great respect for Harry Brunk and his contribution to the hobby, I proposed an addendum to Harry's coal car classification system which would recognize these three different types of early C&S coal cars as distinct without disrupting Harry's classification system. Also, when Harry wrote his original NG&SLG articles, not much was known or appreciated about these early coal cars. Derrell Poole's and Ron Rudnick's published research really brought these early coal cars to everybody's attention - in great detail.

Thus, 

Type 00 = the 1897 3 board coal cars delivered in UPD&G livery

Type 0 = the 1898 4 board coal cars delivered in what Derrell Poole has called the C&S St. Charles lettering scheme.

Type 1 = the 1902 coal cars

Type 2 = the 1908 coal cars

Type 3 = the 1910 coal cars

My drawings of the Type 00 and Type 0 coal cars which are in the current NG&SLG and expanded versions of which will soon be in the B&L are heavily dependent on the work of Derrell Poole and Ron Rudnick. I have credited their tremendous contributions to the current body of knowledge and do so again here. I am standing on the shoulders of Giants. My interests (and drawings) are focused on the various lettering styles seen on early C&S rolling stock as well as what lettering styles would have been seen on what cars, during what time period, and why. Pretty esoteric stuff for sure, but it keeps me out of the bars.

As for the C&S On3 cinder cars, Derrell Poole published plans for the cars in Model Railroader many years ago. When I saw his plans I knew I needed as many models of this interesting car as the prototype C&S had of the real thing (ten cinder cars). So, I built a styrene master for the On3 C&S cinder car and had it professionally cast in the highest quality resin then available. This project led me to do the same thing for the Type 00, Type 0, Type 1, Type 2 C&S coal cars and the Type 2 side dump car in On3. Come to think of it, I also did the same for several dozen Victor Gold Mining Co. F&CC coal cars - always a favorite of mine - as well as several dozen 30 ft. On3 Peninsular coal cars. Most of these custom cast models went to my shop for assembly line construction but several of each went to The Cimarron Works as kits and sold out quickly.

This type of mass production technique is a real time sink and is tedious as hell, but well worth it in the end as I eventually achieved my goal of a fleet of early C&S coal cars, cinder cars and dump cars - all with accurate and appropriate decal lettering custom printed by Rail Graphics, Inc. from my artwork drawn using Corel Draw. 

These various casting projects were performed almost ten years ago. I am sure the cost of custom casting has come down and the quality has increased. 3D printing of casting masters is of course now possible, although expensive.

Regards,

Bob Stears

Billings, Montana

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 31, 2016, at 7:15 PM, Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have a couple gondola questions that I'm hoping this group can help me answer:

First off, required reading is Dave Grandt's Narrow Gauge Pictorial VIII, by Derrell Poole and Ken Martin: https://www.amazon.com/NARROW-GAUGE-PICTORIAL-COLORADO-PASSENGER/dp/B001FBIJ38/ref=sr_1_34?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1472694875&sr=1-34&keywords=Narrow+Gauge+pictorial
The text and photos will answer most of your questions.

What are the dimensions of the end beams, side sills, intermediate and center sills used on the gondolas referenced in the latest Gazette article and drawings? I guess we are referring to these as Phase 00, 0, I, II and of course III are the steel underframe cars.

As I just happened to have my coal car plans with me at the hospital:
The phase 00, 0, and I (St Charles and ASF cars) had 5x12 side sills, 4x7 intermediate sills and 5x9center sills; end beams 6 x 11.
Needle beams 4x10, notched at ends for side sills.
The phase II (early Bettendorf cars) had 5x9 side sills, 4x7 intermediate sills and 5x9center sills; end beams 6 x 11.
Needle beams 4x10, notched (smaller than earlier cars) at ends for side sills.
The phase III (Bettendorf SUF) had 5x7 side sills, total 4 intermediate sills to support the steel frame cross members.


I understand from some past reading that there were some unusual sizes of timber used for some of these components.

Yes, see above.


We're the center sills spliced from shorter lengths of timber as the later D&RGW gondolas?

Not that I've seen on any plans.


We're some sort of wood sills used with the Phase III cars to span the metal components and support the floor?

Yes, 4 shallow intermediate sills, 2 on each side of the center I-beam.


Are Darrell Poole's car drawings still available?

Ask Derrell: http://www.7thstreetgroups.com/shops/


Regarding the Penninsular Car D,SP & P taper sill gondolas survivors into the C&S era and repainted as such at all?  When did they leave the roster?

Yes, quite a few:


The 40,000 lb capacity box and coal cars were peninsular 30' cars. Most were gone or converted to flats of work service by teh late teens.

Ron Rudnick sells a complete booklet of plans for all the DSP&P and CC cars that were inherited by the C&S. As he is a contributor here you can probably contact him via this site's directory.

The cinder cars that were produced by Cimarron Works in the past were built from which Phase of cars, what year and how many ?

I don't recall any cinder cars by Cimarron Works. Could be wrong though.

Was there any there any other cinders cars built later, if so from what Phase of cars?

Cinder cars were rebuilt from St Charles 4-board coals, and phase 2 coals, at different times, the two classes of cars had completely different side doors:

Some beautiful On3 models by Dr Robert Stears from past blog articles:


Rebuilt from St Charles coal car.


Rebuilt from phase II (1907 coal car).

Hope this helps.

Jim

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[Jeff Young]

Wow, Bob’s #206 certainly has me drooling.  I love the freshly shopped re-lettering on it….

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Todd A Ferguson]

Bob,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge here and in the Gazette. It sounds like we have similar 

timeframe interests regarding the C&S. I like the earlier years when the Gilpin was still a going concern.

I have followed the writings and beautiful modeling of Harry Brunk since the late 1970s. Great stuff!

Regardless, the C&S in this era is all rather new and mostly unknown to me.  I would do C&S in On3 at 

this point in life. 

But I have two concerns remaining. First the availability of motive power as I don't think

much has been made since the Overland mid 80s to perhaps mid 90s models. I assume these were in 

limited quantities too. There doesn't appear to be all that much on the secondary market. But maybe I am not

looking in the right places.

Second would be the availability of era correct rolling stock models that I could build

in a reasonable timeframe. My interest would probably be in a layout based around the Forks Creek and

Black Hawk area. There might be other branch or less well known areas to me that could be modeled, but

I would like to include a bit of Gilpin too. My thoughts are around 50-60 cars total and perhaps 5-6 locomotives.

My third concern was gathering information and knowledge, but with the Internet and groups like this I 

don't see that as a problem. I basically have a handful of C&S and Gilpin resource books. But there is a lot of good

information in them. I just need to get it into context better for myself. Is there a car roster that shows car 

heritage and numbers in the C&S era? That would be useful to many I believe.

I appreciate the effort that goes into research and creating drawings and models. I wrote CAD software 

at GM back in the 1980s. I was also fortunate to get to work on early solid modeling and stereo lithography 

projects, now simply known as 3D Printing. But the one issue that I have always had with any published 

drawings is the general lack of dimensions. It is rather hard to accurately scale from even large scale drawings.

Maybe it it the precision nature of CAD but I really like to have not only general drawings but as many precise 

dimensions as possible. Therefore, my desire to understand the timber sizes used on the C&S cars.

Thanks to everyone who is involved in this site!

Best,

Todd Ferguson 

Harrisburg, NC 

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 1, 2016, at 2:57 AM, Robert Stears [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would also recommend Harry Brunk's original articles in the Narrow Gauge & Short Line Gazette and his subsequent article reprints in his two books published by benchmark publications.

Harry's classification system was a great help for me in making sense of different types of C&S coal cars from the perspective of the 1930's. However, as one if those crazy guys interested in (and modeling) the early C&S up to the beginning of the Great War in 1914, Harry's classification scheme was confusing as it lumped the 1897, 1898 and 1902 C&S coal cars into a single category - "Type 1".  For my C&S model empire (covering 1897 to 1914 but focusing on 1908) these three different early coal cars make up the majority of the coal cars on the property with just a couple "Type 2" and "Type 3" coal cars in block lettering hanging around. With great respect for Harry Brunk and his contribution to the hobby, I proposed an addendum to Harry's coal car classification system which would recognize these three different types of early C&S coal cars as distinct without disrupting Harry's classification system. Also, when Harry wrote his original NG&SLG articles, not much was known or appreciated about these early coal cars. Derrell Poole's and Ron Rudnick's published research really brought these early coal cars to everybody's attention - in great detail.

Thus, 

Type 00 = the 1897 3 board coal cars delivered in UPD&G livery

Type 0 = the 1898 4 board coal cars delivered in what Derrell Poole has called the C&S St. Charles lettering scheme.

Type 1 = the 1902 coal cars

Type 2 = the 1908 coal cars

Type 3 = the 1910 coal cars

My drawings of the Type 00 and Type 0 coal cars which are in the current NG&SLG and expanded versions of which will soon be in the B&L are heavily dependent on the work of Derrell Poole and Ron Rudnick. I have credited their tremendous contributions to the current body of knowledge and do so again here. I am standing on the shoulders of Giants. My interests (and drawings) are focused on the various lettering styles seen on early C&S rolling stock as well as what lettering styles would have been seen on what cars, during what time period, and why. Pretty esoteric stuff for sure, but it keeps me out of the bars.

As for the C&S On3 cinder cars, Derrell Poole published plans for the cars in Model Railroader many years ago. When I saw his plans I knew I needed as many models of this interesting car as the prototype C&S had of the real thing (ten cinder cars). So, I built a styrene master for the On3 C&S cinder car and had it professionally cast in the highest quality resin then available. This project led me to do the same thing for the Type 00, Type 0, Type 1, Type 2 C&S coal cars and the Type 2 side dump car in On3. Come to think of it, I also did the same for several dozen Victor Gold Mining Co. F&CC coal cars - always a favorite of mine - as well as several dozen 30 ft. On3 Peninsular coal cars. Most of these custom cast models went to my shop for assembly line construction but several of each went to The Cimarron Works as kits and sold out quickly.

This type of mass production technique is a real time sink and is tedious as hell, but well worth it in the end as I eventually achieved my goal of a fleet of early C&S coal cars, cinder cars and dump cars - all with accurate and appropriate decal lettering custom printed by Rail Graphics, Inc. from my artwork drawn using Corel Draw. 

These various casting projects were performed almost ten years ago. I am sure the cost of custom casting has come down and the quality has increased. 3D printing of casting masters is of course now possible, although expensive.

Regards,

Bob Stears

Billings, Montana

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 31, 2016, at 7:15 PM, Jim Courtney [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have a couple gondola questions that I'm hoping this group can help me answer:

First off, required reading is Dave Grandt's Narrow Gauge Pictorial VIII, by Derrell Poole and Ken Martin: https://www.amazon.com/NARROW-GAUGE-PICTORIAL-COLORADO-PASSENGER/dp/B001FBIJ38/ref=sr_1_34?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1472694875&sr=1-34&keywords=Narrow+Gauge+pictorial
The text and photos will answer most of your questions.

What are the dimensions of the end beams, side sills, intermediate and center sills used on the gondolas referenced in the latest Gazette article and drawings? I guess we are referring to these as Phase 00, 0, I, II and of course III are the steel underframe cars.

As I just happened to have my coal car plans with me at the hospital:
The phase 00, 0, and I (St Charles and ASF cars) had 5x12 side sills, 4x7 intermediate sills and 5x9center sills; end beams 6 x 11.
Needle beams 4x10, notched at ends for side sills.
The phase II (early Bettendorf cars) had 5x9 side sills, 4x7 intermediate sills and 5x9center sills; end beams 6 x 11.
Needle beams 4x10, notched (smaller than earlier cars) at ends for side sills.
The phase III (Bettendorf SUF) had 5x7 side sills, total 4 intermediate sills to support the steel frame cross members.


I understand from some past reading that there were some unusual sizes of timber used for some of these components.

Yes, see above.


We're the center sills spliced from shorter lengths of timber as the later D&RGW gondolas?

Not that I've seen on any plans.


We're some sort of wood sills used with the Phase III cars to span the metal components and support the floor?

Yes, 4 shallow intermediate sills, 2 on each side of the center I-beam.


Are Darrell Poole's car drawings still available?

Ask Derrell: http://www.7thstreetgroups.com/shops/


Regarding the Penninsular Car D,SP & P taper sill gondolas survivors into the C&S era and repainted as such at all?  When did they leave the roster?

Yes, quite a few:


The 40,000 lb capacity box and coal cars were peninsular 30' cars. Most were gone or converted to flats of work service by teh late teens.

Ron Rudnick sells a complete booklet of plans for all the DSP&P and CC cars that were inherited by the C&S. As he is a contributor here you can probably contact him via this site's directory.

The cinder cars that were produced by Cimarron Works in the past were built from which Phase of cars, what year and how many ?

I don't recall any cinder cars by Cimarron Works. Could be wrong though.

Was there any there any other cinders cars built later, if so from what Phase of cars?

Cinder cars were rebuilt from St Charles 4-board coals, and phase 2 coals, at different times, the two classes of cars had completely different side doors:

Some beautiful On3 models by Dr Robert Stears from past blog articles:


Rebuilt from St Charles coal car.


Rebuilt from phase II (1907 coal car).

Hope this helps.

Jim

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[John Greenly]

I can maybe add a small bit to this great volume of valuable information.  On the 1902 Coal Car thread I was discussing using an old Tomalco kit for the D&RG 1903 car as a starting point for a C&S 1902 coal car.  That kit has Grandt stakes that I think would be correct for C&S except that they are not tapered.  It turns out to be very easy to properly taper the HO stakes.  I simply filed the taper on the back side of the stake, ending just above the backing plate for the U-bolt,  and then bent the stake, just with fingers and a fingernail bearing on the right spot  on the back, so that the back is now straight and the front tapers. It's not much of a bend and needed no heating or anything tricky, just bent it cold.  The whole process takes about a minute to do.  I did one two days ago, and it shows no sign of trying to bend back.  A couple of details;  to make the taper even side-to-side, I filed the stake crossways to the taper, then bent it, and then about two lengthwise swipes with it held flat on a mill file perfected the flattening of the back.  I have these stakes from a very old Tomalco kit but the present parts in Grandt's web catalogue appear the same.  The Grandt line numbers are 5002 for HO, 4012 for S, and 4 for O scale.  In the larger scales the bending might not be so easy, it might need a judicious scoring or slit on the back side, or perhaps heating, to enable the bend.

Cheers,
John  

[John Greenly]

This is straying dangerously into foreign- F&CC- territory, but, Bob,  I'd be very interested to know what the paint and lettering of the Victor Gold Mining cars was like.  If I understand correctly, car# 350, as in the LaBelle kit, was unique in its color scheme.  Can you tell me about the others?  I have not found any photos of them.  

Thanks,
John

[Todd A Ferguson]

John,

A couple questions and thoughts...

I thing a little softening of the back side of the stake at the bend point might make the bending easier in S and O scale. Maybe even in HO scale too.  I guess one question would be if the bolt spacing was close to the same on the stakes. This might not be a big deal in a small HO model but could show up in larger scales. Weren't the D& RG cars originally built by ACF, and some of the C&S cars also. So, maybe the spacing is very similar.

Thanks for sharing.

Best, 

Todd Ferguson 

Harrisburg, NC 

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 1, 2016, at 12:12 PM, John Greenly [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I can maybe add a small bit to this great volume of valuable information.  On the 1902 Coal Car thread I was discussing using an old Tomalco kit for the D&RG 1903 car as a starting point for a C&S 1902 coal car.  That kit has Grandt stakes that I think would be correct for C&S except that they are not tapered.  It turns out to be very easy to properly taper the HO stakes.  I simply filed the taper on the back side of the stake, ending just above the backing plate for the U-bolt,  and then bent the stake, just with fingers and a fingernail bearing on the right spot  on the back, so that the back is now straight and the front tapers. It's not much of a bend and needed no heating or anything tricky, just bent it cold.  The whole process takes about a minute to do.  I did one two days ago, and it shows no sign of trying to bend back.  A couple of details;  to make the taper even side-to-side, I filed the stake crossways to the taper, then bent it, and then about two lengthwise swipes with it held flat on a mill file perfected the flattening of the back.  I have these stakes from a very old Tomalco kit but the present parts in Grandt's web catalogue appear the same.  The Grandt line numbers are 5002 for HO, 4012 for S, and 4 for O scale.  In the larger scales the bending might not be so easy, it might need a judicious scoring or slit on the back side, or perhaps heating, to enable the bend.

Cheers,
John  

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[Todd A Ferguson]

John,

I've seen a photo somewhere. If only car number 350 was the yellow then I believe the rest of the cars were boxcar red or some sort of red. I recall that I read something saying that 50 of the cars might've been yellow but I don't recall the source at the moment. I believe there were maybe 100 total cars.

Best,

Todd Ferguson 

Harrisburg, NC 

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 1, 2016, at 12:26 PM, John Greenly [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is straying dangerously into foreign- F&CC- territory, but, Bob,  I'd be very interested to know what the paint and lettering of the Victor Gold Mining cars was like.  If I understand correctly, car# 350, as in the LaBelle kit, was unique in its color scheme.  Can you tell me about the others?  I have not found any photos of them.  

Thanks,
John

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[Chris Walker]

There may be something in here....
http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Ph1-Coal-Car-lookalike-on-the-F-CC-tp3080.html

[Todd A Ferguson]

Chris,

Thanks!!! I believe that is it....

Best,

Todd Ferguson 

Harrisburg, NC 

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 1, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Chris Walker [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

There may be something in here....
http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/Ph1-Coal-Car-lookalike-on-the-F-CC-tp3080.html

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[Keith Hayes]

Once again, all great stuff.

Thanks Robert, for clarifying the three early classes of coals: we are all building our knowledge upon the shoulders of others. I too must add to my bucket list a couple Phase II cinder cars. The doors/ hinges would be a great 3d print project.

And Chris, thank you for your patience uncovering old threads for those of us with dim memories. As I tell my clients, I know more and more each day about less and less: at some point I will know everything about nothing.

[John Greenly]

Chris, yes, thanks,  I have studied this F&CC lookalike thread before.  If I understood the posts there correctly, there were 4-board F&CC cars quite similar, as shown in the photos, to the C&S phase 0 cars, lettered  F&CC as in the photos there and numbered 351-399. Also there were 3- board cars like the C&S cars inherited  from the UPD&G (phase 00 I believe).  If as Rick says, there were 50 of these, lettered for the VGM, numbered 300-350, but only #350 had the yellow paint scheme, what did the rest look like?  That's what I would like to find out.

many thanks,
John

[John Greenly]

As to bolt spacing on the stakes, the Grandt stakes have bolt spacings for 10 inch boards, and that is the same as the C&S phase 0 cars.  The Grandt stakes are actually for 5-board cars, but you can cut off the top.  

John

[Chris Walker]

Keith Hayes wrote

Once again, all great stuff.

And Chris, thank you for your patience uncovering old threads for those of us with dim memories.

Keith, I'm doing it not so much for that reason, partly because I'm having cognative issues that have become more noticable in recent weeks, but in part mostly due to the increasing number of Visitors to our little corner of the Net.  

Maybe if there are links to the older threads that cover a multitude of details, then the "readership" will increase.

[Darel Leedy]

Just a friendly reminder; there is an extremely advanced and useful search box at the top of every single page of this forum

[Todd A Ferguson]

John,

If that is the case it sounds like a real option. I believe Mike has also done his Shapeways stakes in S and even O scale too.  Great stuff!!!

Best,

Todd Ferguson 

Harrisburg, NC 

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 1, 2016, at 8:57 PM, John Greenly [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

As to bolt spacing on the stakes, the Grandt stakes have bolt spacings for 10 inch boards, and that is the same as the C&S phase 0 cars.  The Grandt stakes are actually for 5-board cars, but you can cut off the top.  

John

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[John Greenly]

Thanks, Darel, I do always do a search of previous threads before I ask a question, and this is such a wonderful gold mine of information that I always end up wandering off into other subjects even more interesting than the one I start with.  I tremendously appreciate the patience you all have and the help you give, and I do my best to minimize asking questions.  I wish I could contribute more information myself, but you are all so far ahead of me that it is hard to come up with anything significant.  All I can say is, Thanks, so much!

John