First Decade C&S Lineside Petroleum Tanks . . . and Tank Cars?

[Dave Eggleston]

I was also tempted to define the first and last number in the series as being the two car numbers but that isn't always the case. I've seen plenty of these lists giving number ranges with only a handful of cars in the range. In several cases those cars were numbered with the first numbers in the series, not the first and last. In others, they were numbers spread across the series--and not necessarily the first or the last.

1055 is listed in the ORER as a flat in 1904, 1905 and 1906, not just 1907. It's also listed as a flat in 1908-1912. And it's listed as a flat, not a tank, in December 1902, the year Darrell says it was converted. It's important to note that by listed I mean the number is in the allocated range of numbers for cars of that type. Whether the specific number is in service or not isn't given.

All I'm getting out of the ORER definitively from 1899 to 1912 is there were 1-2 flats with tanks on them, reported only in 1902, 1903, 1907 and 1908. Only 1907 and 1908 call out specific car numbers, not a range: 01056 and 01066. There's not enough info in the ORER to say there's a typo here, not enough to say there isn't. We know they had water cars, we know roughly when, what type of flatcar they rode on, and two car numbers.

The Fiscal Reports of 1904 and 1905 list 2 and 3 cars with water tanks, giving flatcar type but no numbers.

A lot of unanswered questions. I'm interested in the primary source Derrell used that shows 1055 as a tank car, in 1902. His source, I'm guessing, is a company roster of some type. And from what I read in Pictorial VIII, it doesn't appear to answer the petroleum tank question. But it might answer more on these water cars. Do you know his primary source?

[Jim Courtney]

So far in this thread, we have established that there were several lineside bulk storage tanks on the Clear Creek line and one at Breckenridge, in the late 1890s and early first decade.

We have established that the early C&S converted a couple of Peninsular flat cars by mounting tanks on them, for the purpose of transporting and storing locomotive fuel oil, for the 1902 "smokeless" summer excursions. When this plan fell through, due to a sudden spike in oil prices, the tank cars were apparently repurposed as "water cars".

Dave posted above that there is no evidence of pre-C&S tank cars.

So I was surprised when re-reading Ron Rudnick's UPD&G / DL&G Modeling Guide, Version 6.1 and got to the very last page, showing the all time UPD&G / DL&G roster:

Ron's roster notes that the UPD&G had an "Oil Tank", numbered UPD&G 4232. The car was one of 24 cars, series 4213-4237, that were 26-foot flat cars, built by the Union Pacific shops for the Colorado Central in 1873. The term "Oil Tank" implies a tank on flat car conversion. I could find no info on this presumed tank car in the UPD&G ORERs that Dave graciously shared with me earlier this year. Was 4232 still a tank car when the new C&S arose from the receiverships in January of 1899?

Even more surprising and weird was the notation that the DL&G also owned an "Oil Tank", car number 24231. The weird part is that the car was from DL&G car series 24083-24275, 26-foot Litchfield boxcars of 1879-1880. So how can a box car be an "Oil Tank"?

I thought perhaps this car was a designated boxcar for hauling barrels or drums of petroleum products. But the designation "Oil Tank" implies a true tank, to hold bulk liquid products. The certainly couldn't squeeze a tank into the car through the side doors, nor I doubt that they would rivet a tank together on the inside. Surely boxcar 24231 lost its box superstructure, perhaps wreck damage, and its frame was repurposed as the base for a mounted tank.  

In reviewing the June, 1894, ORER for the UP system, I found the notation that car 24231 was an oil tank, at the bottom of the listing of DL&G narrow gauge cars at that time. It is doubtful that the car was ever converted back to a boxcar.




Since both UPD&G 4232 and DL&G 24231 were 26-foot cars, any tank mounted on them would have to be small in size / length, no longer than 23-24 feet.

Does anyone have any other info on these two "Oil Tanks"? Were they still tank cars in the first years of the new C&S?

[Jim Courtney]

This photo is the only one I've seen clearly showing the three petroleum storage tanks in the Central City yards, as indicated by the 1918 Valuation Map:




H.E. High photo, dated 1920.

The photo is in the R.B. Jackson photo album: https://californiarevealed.org/islandora/object/cavpp%3A70852#page/1/mode/1up/search/Richard%20B.%20Jackson

The center tank appears to have no dome, all three are painted a light color, grey or silver. Note the pipe or walkway across all three tanks, this side of the domes. The two out buildings also match the valuation map.

Thanks again, Daniel, for the link to the album.

[Dave Eggleston]

Wow, that is a fantastic photo, one of the best showing those sheds, too. This is one of those photos that has me temporarily think of modeling Central right after WWI rather than mid-1890s. Jim, your multi-period modeling's brilliance is calling to me...

Dang, that pole full of insulators.

I'd be curious about domed versus un-domed tanks; what products got away with the domeless tanks? Domes, I believe, were to trap and bleed off-gases?

[SteveG]

I've been following this thread with interest. In response to your question, Dave, I suspect that either/both lubricating oil or 'bunker' heating oil have low enough volatilty that domes aren't needed. I know that neither the delivery trucks nor residential heating oil tanks where I grew up in the northeast were domed.

Steve Guty
Lakeway, TX

[drgwcs]

Todd Hackett posted this in another thread
http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/Rotary-in-Black-Hawk-td20936.html#a21196

and then Alexander Hois pointed it out in the C&S Facebook group when we were talking about the subject of Conoco

Here are the illusive Black Hawk Tanks


In front is the Hay Grain building

[Todd Hackett]

A bit bigger:

[drgwcs]

Todd (and others)
Does it look like to you that the supports for the tank are wood or cast concrete (I would assume the latter but they are fairly dark)

[Todd Hackett]

They look layered. I doubt wood supports would be just stacked boards, but those could be lines in the concrete from forms made from horizontal boards or maybe it's masonry construction.

[drgwcs]

Todd Hackett wrote

They look layered. I doubt wood supports would be just stacked boards, but those could be lines in the concrete from forms made from horizontal boards or maybe it's masonry construction.

That is what I was thinking was concrete forms but it looked a little dark. From the lines running over it almost appears that the building to the right is an oil house. Does anyone have any photos of the warehouse that was next to see if it was it?

Another project to do  and I haven't even finished the billboards and footbridge at Forks Creek that I just started (never mind finishing the Bobtail) This one however might be pretty easy. This rests right at the edge of the layout so I am thinking three plumbing caps and a piece of Balsa with some embossing underneath. That would be tough enough to survive the occasional bump.

[drgwcs]

OK was rummaging around in the Mineral Belt volume III and this sure looks like the building next to the tanks- there is a building, as well as a lean to, missing in between it and the Gilpin mill (which also had a lot of changes) which looks like the right width for the tanks.
Notice the barrels- this is pretty early (noting the waycar) and oil was often done in barrels at that point.

[Chris Walker]

Notice the barrels- this is pretty early (noting the waycar) and oil was often done in barrels at that point.

Black Hawk Beer Depot with barrels of beer.

[Dave Eggleston]

Really nice to see a full image of the tanks has finally been found! This finally answers a question that has been bugging me a long time, the hint of tanks in OP-6261. The Perry image is found here:
https://digital.denverlibrary.org/nodes/view/1054053?keywords=op-6261&type=all&highlights=WyJvcC02MjYxIl0%3D&lsk=05a679f01b3b6b2f6de6f971742dd369 

A detail snip shows them:  

So nice to have another mystery finally solved!

[drgwcs]

Chris Walker wrote

Notice the barrels- this is pretty early (noting the waycar) and oil was often done in barrels at that point.

Black Hawk Beer Depot with barrels of beer.

Oops I was thinking that was the next one down. However in my defense there were two beer warehouses on the 1900 Sanborn Map.



I wonder what the date was of the photo showing the tanks? Colorado enacted prohibition in 1916 so there is a distinct possibility that the building might have been sold (or rented) about that time. There are pipes going to the building so it makes you wonder.

[Todd Hackett]

<quote author="drgwcs">

Chris Walker wrote

...I wonder what the date was of the photo showing the tanks?...

I'm sure there are other clues, but with the block lettering in the boxcar looking in good condition, I'd guess 1907 to early 1920s.
The photo from MB III (which was on pages 390 & 391) is identified in the caption (on page 392) as "about 1887." The photographer's name A. H. Thomas is printed on the image, and according to "Biographies of Western Photographers," he was active in Central City from 1900 to 1901. The waycar looks pretty skinny in the scan, so I was wondering if it's one of the GT cabooses. Looking at the photo in the book it does look like a South Park waycar, and while it looks like there's some dual gauge track behind it, it looks to me like the 2-food gauge branches off just behind this car.

[Chris Walker]

Apparently I've been mis-quoted.  

There seems to be a cross-pollinated discussion on two photos referred to.

A.M Thomas liked that viewpoint: the Adolf Coors Beer warehouse photo(with the C&S bobber) dated as being 1887 by Digerness, Mineral Belt III conveniently overlooked the 1898 built stampmill of the Boston & Denver Mining & Milling co(later the Fifty Gold Mines Corporation).  

In Todd's fine photo, see http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/Rotary-in-Black-Hawk-tp20936p21128.html

The rails of the Central City switchbacks are present denoting a date no later than July 1931, and maybe more like pre-1929 as that year the C&STrackage Map Central City Br. noted "Not Operated".

The 1918 C&S Val. Map has no notation of the Tanks there at Black Hawk, but at Cen. Cty.

Mid-1920's might be the best guess, until someone gets a date on the removal of the tanks at C.C.
 
A notation of one H.J. Goddard, former Agent at Idaho Springs, then Cen. Cty. (once that office was closed) moved to Marshall, Co.
Idaho Springs Mining Gazette, Volume 44, Number 33, February 20, 1925.

[drgwcs]

Chris Walker wrote

Apparently I've been mis-quoted.  

There seems to be a cross-pollinated discussion on two photos referred to.

A.M Thomas liked that viewpoint: the Adolf Coors Beer warehouse photo,(with the C&S bobber) dated as being 1887 by Digerness conveniently overlooked the 1898 built stampmill of the Boston & Denver Mining & Milling co(later the Fifty Gold Mines Corporation).  

In Todd's fine photo, see http://c-sng-discussion-forum.254.s1.nabble.com/Rotary-in-Black-Hawk-tp20936p21128.html

The rails of the Central City switchbacks are present denoting a date no later than July 1931, and maybe more like pre-1929 as that year the C&STrackage Map Central City Br. noted "Not Operated".

The 1918 C&S Val. Map has no notation of the Tanks there at Black Hawk, but at Cen. Cty.

Mid-1920's might be the best guess, until someone gets a date on the removal of the tanks at C.C.
 
A notation of one H.J. Goddard former Idaho Springs the Cen. Cty. Agent(when that office was closed) moved to Marshall, Co.
Idaho Springs Mining Gazette, Volume 44, Number 33, February 20, 1925.

I was trying to narrow it down a bit on the photo that had the tanks



The note on the CC trackage helps. We do have a block lettered boxcar that the lettering is pretty clear.
I wish I could identify the vehicle but appears mid 20's (things rounded out on roof contours in the late 20's) It is impossible to see if the boarding house is gone which was apparently early 30's.
(I guess I have to chuckle on finding the exact date- I have plenty of date anachronisms in Black Hawk already whats one more????- not to mention the fact that my standard gauge section is set at least ten years later- I'm going to need a Delorian rather than a panel truck to explain all this )