Denver to Como 1881

[John Droste]

Thanks Chris.
Somehow I had got this idea in my head from reading the opening chapters of Mac Poor`s book. Not saying that you are are wrong, of coarse.
Should I come across what it was that made me think this, I will mention it again.

Another reader had made the comment to me as well that the dispute between the UP and the D&RG was before the event of the opening of the Union Station. I checked and that is true. I could not find further information on exactly how that issue was resolved. If there remained any indebtedness to the UP by the D&RG?
 However also, the buildings that had to be removed would not necessarily be destroyed if possible. Perhaps the D&RG and the CC sold the buildings off to Jay Gould just to be rid of them. Seems to have been his MO on the way to greater power. Invest into needy smaller railroads by providing unrequired equipment from previous takeovers.

 Will make a waver here. Mush of what I am saying will turn out to be wrong in the precise sense. It is only a description of events, as I see them. I have not the knowledge of many, can not cross reference to that degree, only when people like yourself comment. So I am grateful for that.

 Regarding last posts on the walls. I said that the four walls of the Freight rom came from That Other building in Denver. I think wall * is an extension of those walls to the Oil room. Hence the smaller window. But I am not sure. I do not know which building the floor under the Oil Room came from. Same as the Western portion of the office. Perhaps I could address that more accurately by measurement. What I do understand is that the Other Structure behind the D&RG station building must have been shorter Station. Otherwise it would have shown itself protruding.
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/88627
 Only alternative would be is that the building was already being dismantled. The A frame flatcar indicates to me that such events were looming. As does the completion of the Union tower.

 Chris, regarding the stone works above the D&RG station. All of the stone waste would need be taken away. And there would be a lot. No doubt the stone works was in part to provide stone for the Union construction. That stone and the workers who shaped it would need to move on elsewhere. Therefore, I believe, the naming of lake Como. After Lake Como in Italy. Which means, Como had a different name at first.
 Point I wanted to make was regarding the Alpine Engine House. I do not have the photo but low down on one of the corners of the structure, a corner stone, is a piece of cut and shaped stone. Much like a broken stone window sill may have looked.

I found this other photo, an enlargement of the 1883 Como photo.
It shows the things that I have been pointing out much clearer. Like the banner of the kitchen door, the vestibule in front of the office door, and the patches in the freight room roof.

[John Droste]

Moving the depot to near Nineteenth Street.
I have not done a post on the things that made me consider fully that the D&RG station or depot had more than one life before being moved to Como. Today is not that day.
 In a recent post I pondered the question on how the D&RG station was moved from K or 11th Street to 19th. I got to thinking about that and I think I worked out how the station was moved. And I will explain. However, just where the station was moved from has become unclear to me, at present.
The D&RG station operated from near 11th Street in 1873, and also 1880,1881 according to the city directories.  
1873 .http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/6701
1880  http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/8670
1881  http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/9102

The intervening years are listed as being on the SouthWest corner Wynkoop & Nineteenth. Always the Freight & Passenger depots listed plurally.
1879  http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/8369
1874  http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16079coll28/id/6989

 I had once noted to David Tomkins on the heavy timber beams under the walls of the depot. David said that they were under the depot only and not the office.

Above, a photo provided to me by Bob Schoppe. Builder Mr Pershbacher is inspecting where he cut through the trapdoor/hatch under the wall. The heavy timber beam or bottom wall plate as it appears is just beside his hip. Normally a bottom plate and top plate for that matter would be ex 2inch high. That one looks about ten inch high, maybe twelve. This fundamental structure was made for moving, it seems to me.
 A frame like that could be manoeuvred onto some flatcars or disconnects and rolled along. Or just dragged across the ground. Not saying it was taken to Como like that, of coarse.
 But then to manoeuvre that building into position once near location. The structure would need to be turned ninety degrees and then moved into position. One great way of achieving this would be to make a siding off the main track so that one flat car could move into the siding, thus pivoting the station around.
 
 And there was a siding there, placed in the required position.
 From the flatcars or disconnects, the building could then be rolled on logs to its location. It could even be winched across from the diverging track leading to Wewatta St.
 Exact location the building came from is debatable, I guess. Were I given charge to move the building, I would do it just as I have described.
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/88627

 Would like to wish readers a Happy, Healthy and Safe Christmas.
John

[John Droste]

I was thinking about the lower ceiling of the Sleeping Quarters and the dividing wall to the office which I suggested was the walls of a boxcar as it is only of a certain hight with full hight cladding only extending to full internal hight of the office.

I wondered if the ceiling could actually have been the sides of a boxcar also, resting on top of the supporting boxcar wall.



Looking at the photo, the hight of the "boxcar wall" seems to be the same distance as the width of the room above the wall.

This being a hunch, seems to figure then but only David would be able to measure and verify this.

Have been gaining other insights, but later...

[John Droste]

I mentioned earlier on that I did not know if the floor under the baggage room were of the shorter floor joists all the way across the room.
Also, I mentioned that I was still unsure if all of the East wall of the baggage room came from the Original Depot.
In both cases they do, but there is a twist now.
I became aware of these answers while looking at the photo of Mr Pershenbacher (forgive me if I am not spelling his name correct) of Older than Dirt amongst the floor in the baggage room.
The photo above may show it better. The bottom plate of the outside wall is a thick heavy timber. 5 or 6 inch wide by 10 or 12 inch high. This indicates to me that this was part of the original depot.

 Also, it can be seen that the cavity that Mike is standing in, extends under the oil room.

 So it is fair to say that the walls came from the original depot but the floor in this room came from the other building, whatever its purpose was.
 But it is enough for me to understand that the floor of what was thought to be the first extension, is actually also part of the original depot.

 So let us get forensic here for a bit. I will bring up the B,B& S page showing the room sizes in the Depot, below.



It may be hard to pick up the measurements but for the record. The agents office is 12 & 3/4 feet wide and the baggage room is 17 feet wide.
 And I am saying also that the floor sections of (Extension One), the waiting room and the freight room, all came from the original depot.

 I have also said that originally as constructed in Como and later changed, the roof over the (first extension) ran in the other direction.

So by adding up the lengths of those three pieces of floor just mentioned, you would think that that may give us the length of the original depot in Denver.
 Problem here is, the replacement section of floor in the baggage room is wider than the section of floor used in the Agents office. A distance of just over four feet. So how does that work if the recycled floor is a set length but the roof has actually ended up longer, by 4&1/4 odd feet?
 The answer to that is in looking at the inside roof of the freight room, as in the photo below. There are missing timbers in the roof indicating that the roof was rebuilt, expanded in length. And looking at this, let me remind you of the haste and manner in which the TOB hole in the North Wall was patched over on the inside.

 I was not there when those new timbers were placed in the roof. It would have been done when the roof was repaired. But I would bet a dollar that there was nothing left of what was meant to be there. Because there was nothing there.

 I need to show you all of this because I want to get to discuss the Switchman's shanty. But not now.

 What I will point out now is this. It seems like there was not a ceiling all the way through the Denver Depot. There are no markings or nail holes in the underside of the Freight room roof framing to indicate that there ever was cladding attached. Odd for a passenger depot!

 Going back a few posts. I was talking about the D&RG Passenger station being located near the D&RG Freight depot for a short time just before the opening of the Union Station. Maybe only the freight depot served as the passenger station also for that short time. Maybe not. But also maybe it was the Freight Depot that was moved across the intersection of Wynkoop & Nineteenth diagonally to become the D&RG Station as per the maps. Not the Passenger station after all? Both buildings did disappear at the same time, according to the City directories.

 It raises some other questions for me as well that I need to pursue for a bit.

[ComoDepot]

The pile of debris at Mike's feet is still there, we were wondering whether we should move it but did not. Around it and parallel to the building was a rectangular hole, As far as could be told it was part of the original framing. I have no idea why it was there but the hole seemed to have been used as somewhere to sweep debris into. On top of the pile was a piece of paper with a date from the late 1890's.

As has been mentioned the framing to the right was much more substantial, like the framing under the freight room. Why it was done that way I have no idea.

I was told there was a similar hole framing detail in another Depot now gone, Estabrook?, whoever told me this did not know why there was such a hole.

The hole was covered up when they laid the second floor, presumably in the late 1890's the date of the top piece of paper on the pile.

The oil room south wall were on top of this now filled in hole so must post date this. The construction is somewhat crude. We think there was shelving along there you can see horizontal pieces on the back wall behind Mike and that these might be related to when the Post Office was in this room. Originally we believe the room was the Agents office before the building was extended to the north.  I do not know when the Agents Office was moved to the extension. I assume sometime in the 1880's.

It is nearly 140 years since the Railroad arrived in what was to become Como, over 80 years since the track was pulled up. The oldest photo we have of the exterior is 136 years ago and taken from some distance, as far as we can tell the only major things that changed was moving the building about 15ft to the south and siding the north end c 1885, removing the platform and re roofing in the early 1900's, well by 1910.

We do not have any photos of the inside from the Railroad era, not sure if there are any at all until fairly recently. Andy Anderson remembered going inside and described what he remembered form that time, he was born in 1920 and passed a few years ago, he worked with his father for the scrapping company dismantling the line. The early period would be the time of his Grandfather who passed in 1930.

There is definite evidence of things changing on the inside and many things that just look odd, if in doubt we left it. Mike's speciality is retaining as much of the original structure as possible, we had to recreate what I call the Switchman's Shanty, the foundation beams that had rotted out, reconstruct the west wall where garage doors had been cut in by Cooley but even then we were able to mainly reuse the doors.

I would imagine 90% of the structure is original, I do not profess to be an expert but there were quite a few people involved in the project that are or were. There is definitely evidence of changes to the building, there is nothing to suggest it was dismantled and reassembled.

I would be fascinated to know for certain when the changes were done and why, realistically I seriously doubt we will ever know.

I still hope for an early photo that would be nearer 1879, many other Depots/Towns on the line were photographed, must have been ones of Como, maybe one will appear.

My impression of Como in those early years as of a transhipment center, warehouses, coal coming out from the mines, a relatively small population. The Roundhouse must have increased the population and then with High Line operational that seems to have kicked the towns development.

One thing that is often asked is what sort of traffic was carried by the Railroad, one thing that is not mentioned is food, I attended a talk by someone now retired a Food Critic. who covered the early days in Colorado and the local cuisine, one thing he stressed was many of the early settlers complained of hunger, the land did not provide much and food prices were very high.

[John Droste]

I am so gobsmacked!
I am so amazed!

[John Droste]

I had known for a long time that the holes in the intersecting walls to the West wall of the depot were for for the bracket from the TOB to pass through.
 Had spent long hours pondering the nature of the pieces of wood covering the TOB hole in the North wall and the matching cover straps in the "Baggage room or Green room".
 The significance did not fall into place until I examined the room sizes of the Pacific Hotel. It was more or less immediately obvious that the plan as provided in the Bogie & Loop was wrong, as was the interpretation of the building. A full building size dining room on the lower floor meant that the "extension" could not have been added to the back of the building. Furthermore, the 98.5 foot long hallway on the first floor in a 99 foot 4 inch long building indicated that there was only room for one end wall, ten inches thick.
 It was clear to me that the 30 x 20&1/3 foot extension was added to join the DSP&P Hotel to the Gilman. And at 20&1/3rd feet deep, the back wall would have been perfectly positioned To carry the forthcoming roof alterations of the Pacific Hotels roof ridge line.
 
 Understanding all this, I also realised that windows would have to be removed from the Gilman to allow entry at the end of the 98.5 foot long hallway. It also confirmed what I had often thought, that the wood used to cover the TOB hole were actually former architraves from around a window.
 And I soon also became aware that the windows removed from the Gilman were used in the Switchman's shanty.
The photo below shows a window from the Pacific Hotel, formerly Gilman Hotel.


Below, one of the windows from the Switchman's shanty and as you can see, the windows are of the same proportions and only a single mullion in the centre of the window.

 I knew what to look for, and it checked out as expected.

 The Floor.
 I have explained that the short floor joists used in the baggage room came from the same building as the floor used in the so called "Second addition". I believe that those same timbers were also used to frame up a floor for the Switchman's Shanty. Because I DO KNOW that the entire Como depot was built all at the same time, AT the TIME that the two hotels were being joined together.
 So lets have a look at that.

What I am asking you to take notice of is the width dimension of the office, 13ft 11 inches inches.
The length of those floor joists or bearers, whichever, would run the width of the building. The walls would sit flush with the ends, and then the outside cladding would extend and be fixed over both.
 Now lets look in the baggage room again.

Above are the short floor joists that I say came from the "Other Building". If this section of floor was framed up with a two inch thick beam on each end, that would make the overall length around 4 inches longer, 14ft 3inches. Actually a bit shorter because timber cut to two inch means Ex two inch and is a little under two inches thick.
 So lets have a look at how wide the Switchman's shanty was now.

 Two times 7ft 1 & 3/8 inches or combined 14ft 2 & 3/4 inches. So virtually the exact measurement expected to be found.

The Roof.
 I believe that the roof came from this same "Other building" as well. You can see how much it overhangs the walls.
 Would you estimate then that since the shanty was four inches wider than the so called "Second addition" that the size of the eaves are proportionate when comparing with the photo below?


The Walls.
I believe that the walls of the shanty came from cars of some sort, caboose or work car and the windows installed into what was door openings. Hence, the pre determined width of the floor, dictated the angle of the two walls with windows.

Of coarse, it could not be expected that the door of a caboose would be the exact same width as the Gilman window and there would need to be some adjustment, but the panels to the sides of the  caboose door seem proportionate to the wall panels next to the windows of the shanty, photo above.
 So all in all, the widths of cabeese and work cars varied but looking at the width of this one, 7ft 5inch wide, it comes very close to the 7ft 1& 3/8inch measurement taken of the wall on an angle.
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 Would just like to point out that it is not easy to know oneself but when one takes on the identity of an inert object, like a building, knowing just who or what you are would become profoundly complicated for the ego. And if that is what one identified themselves to be, some home truths would not come easily, if at all.