Denver NNGC Notes: Tiffany Reefer Colors (again!) -- UP Standard Reefer Green??

[Jim Courtney]

In the last few minutes of the Caboose 1008 Restoration Clinic, Randy Hees of the Nevada State Railroad Museum couldn't resist reopening the can of worms that is the color of the South Park Tiffany reefers.

Randy freely admits that there is no surviving physical evidence, in terms of wood/paint samples, to know what color theses cars truly were. He related an eye-witness report, from an individual that he trusts, that the Tiffany body used as a shed in Leadville had as its first coat of paint a yellow color. The "Tiffany shed" was bulldozed down quite a few years ago.

However, Derrell Poole, in one of his published articles, reports reading AERs for the C&S 1901-1903 Tiffany reefer rebuilding program, which clearly stated that all the Tiffany reefers were completely re-sheathed at that time. So the yellow on the Tiffany shed account only proves that the C&S painted its re-built Tiffanys with yellow sides, as in Konrad's beautiful On3 model.

Randy Hees suggests, that from 1883 until about 1900, the Tiffany cars were painted in a standard UP reefer green scheme. He flatly stated that there is no record of UP reefers being painted yellow prior to 1900.

Not a "moss green" or "mint green" as others have suggested. Not the green color that others have associated with "Tiffany Green", as the color had nothing to do with the Tiffany patent. Rather a very, very pale green, almost an off white or light beige with a green hue.

Randy's premise is that since the UP owned/controlled the South Park from 1883 until 1899, the cars would have been painted a -standard UP refrigerator color. UP freight car "Paint Cards" were prepared by a paint manufacturer (Sherwin-Williams) that supplied the paint for the UP system in the 1880's and 1890's. These paint cards included Pantone numbers.

This is the paint card for UP system reefers, regardless of type or patent:




The Pantone number for the green side sheatings and ends was 617C (I obtained these numbers from Randy in a discussion after the clinic):




The darker green on the upper side (and presumably end) fascia was Pantone 392:




Because many photos show a darkly contrasting roof / upper side fascia compared to the sides, it is also possible that the roof and fascias were painted in a mineral red, Pantone 483C:




I dunno, it's hard to argue the logic of Randy's premise, based on the historic information regarding UP paint standards. That green is a bit icky looking, but would be interesting to paint on a late 1890's DL&G Tiffany model.


As an aside, Randy also showed us a UP standard paint card for boxcars of the 1880-1890 period:




I always understood that those black rectangles, under the reporting marks and numerals, were paint masks, used to obliterate the older, pre-1885 lettering (ie DSP&P, C.C., Kansas Central, Utah and Northern, etc). But according to Randy's research, they were a standard UP system painting convention, also applied to newly constructed cars at the factory, when built.

Who knew?

[Jim Courtney]

Trying to visualize green Tiffany reefers. Consider the Washington spur wreck photos by Dr Scott, that Todd Hacket posted:





How would they look with mineral red roofs and pale green sides, given the Pantone numbers by Randy Hees?





Anyone talented in "colorizing" B&W photos??

[Randy Rieck]

Here is  a model Tiffany Reefer built 10 years ago from a Hartford Short Kit in a possible tiffany green color scheme.

[Jim Courtney]

Beautiful model, Randy.

This paint scheme is beginning to grow on me.

[deemery]

I recall discussions on the Early Rail Yahoo group about the 'straw' color some early reefers were painted.  That first color might well fit the description of "straw".

dave

[Jim Courtney]

Spring straw maybe. Around here in September, all the "straw" is brown.

[Konrad Schreier]

Interesting Thread Jim - I can't offer a lot of insight into this accuracy of this information, but I can tell you that when building an early D&RG car, John Coker recommended I paint in straw yellow:



This is not as green as the color card, but a possible match would be Tamiya Dark Yellow - I have used it a lot and it has a definite green cast to it:

https://www.tamiyausa.com/items/paints-finishes-60/acrylic-paint-(flat)-23ml-60000/acrylic-xf-60-dark-yellow-81360

With its yellow-green tone, this does seem like a reasonable color for a DL&G Tiffany car -

Konrad

[Robert Stears]

Great model.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 10, 2017, at 11:08 PM, Konrad Schreier [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Interesting Thread Jim - I can't offer a lot of insight into this accuracy of this information, but I can tell you that when building an earloy D&RG car, John Coker recommended I paint in straw yellow:



This is not as green as the color card, but a possible match would be Tamiya Dark Yellow - I have used it a lot and it has a definite green cast to it:

https://www.tamiyausa.com/items/paints-finishes-60/acrylic-paint-(flat)-23ml-60000/acrylic-xf-60-dark-yellow-81360

With its yellow-green tone, this does seem like a reasonable color for a DL&G Tiffany car -

Konrad

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NAML

[Robert Stears]

Now you have done it. My next Tiffany will be this color combination.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 10, 2017, at 11:08 PM, Konrad Schreier [via C&Sng Discussion Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Interesting Thread Jim - I can't offer a lot of insight into this accuracy of this information, but I can tell you that when building an earloy D&RG car, John Coker recommended I paint in straw yellow:



This is not as green as the color card, but a possible match would be Tamiya Dark Yellow - I have used it a lot and it has a definite green cast to it:

https://www.tamiyausa.com/items/paints-finishes-60/acrylic-paint-(flat)-23ml-60000/acrylic-xf-60-dark-yellow-81360

With its yellow-green tone, this does seem like a reasonable color for a DL&G Tiffany car -

Konrad

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NAML

[Loggerhead]

Randy, what color green did you use ?I like the color scheme.  I'm currently building the Hartford kit, full version not the short kit, and would like to paint it like yours

[Randy Rieck]

Glad you like the color.

It is Testors'  Model Master RAF SKY Type 'S' ANA 610.

When you complete your car, I hope you will post a picture.

Cheers,
Randy

[Robert McFarland]

Green sky?

[Loggerhead]

Randy

Thanks.  Just starting the kit so will be 1st qtr next year.  will post pics when done.  I should have asked, roof color ??  Botton black or same as roof ??

Dave

[Randy Rieck]

Dave

The model was built quite a while ago and I have never kept notes on paint colors used.
The bottom is definitely Grimy Black.  The roof and trucks are probably Polly Scale Special Oxide Red.
My conversion chart shows that the Model Master paint equivalent for Grimy Black is MM 4887
and for Oxide Red MM 4882.  

The plans that came with my kit showed straight air brakes.  As you probably know, current
consensus is that the car came with automatic air brakes. Konrad Schreier on the blog has several
pictures showing the appropriate brake rigging.

Good luck on your project.

Cheers,
Randy

[Ron Rudnick]

Mac Poor mistakenly reported that the DSP&P used straight air, actually the "Park" switched over from the Eames brakes to the automatic Westinghouse brakes at about the time the Union Pacific took control.  Neither they of the Colorado Central ever used straight air

[Loggerhead]

Randy - thanks for the follow up. Will wing-it from here. Appreciate all the info

Dave

[Loggerhead]

Ron- thanks for the clarification on the brakes

Dave

[Robert McFarland]

There are photos of Eames equipped engines as late as late as 1883-84.Brooks moguls came equipped with Eames brakes.The change seems to be around the time the Cooke engines started showing up.

[Robert McFarland]

Are there any records of locomotives/cars being changed over prior to 1883?

[Will Cheshire]

Randy can you post your paint conversion chart that you mentioned in your post?

Will Cheshire