DSP&P 191-CRRM video

[Kurt Maechner]

I've discovered some fairly recent video gems produced by the Colorado Railroad Museum.  One covers the full history of Denver, Leadville & Gunnison 191 (Formerly DSP&P 51 and later DSP&P 191, and still later C&S 31).  

From this I picked up a few pieces of newer information that I hadn't previously known about 191's post South Park life.  I included that in the post as well.

Kurt

[Richard Farmer]

Hi Kurt
Thanks for the heads up on this. I have seen that locomotive several times at the museum but never knew her history other than the DSP&P connection. I’m going to need to check out the CRRM website for more of these informative/ history lesson videos.
Richard

[Kurt Maechner]

There's a great one on narrow gauge tank cars (including ones that ran on the C&S) I saw recently that you might like as well.  

[Robert McFarland]

Notice the construction workers living quarters on the hillside above  Alpine Tunnel and possibly  a dynamite shed above it.There is another snowshed attached to the main one-could this be for the siding for the tailings pile?BTW there is a photo in the C&S facebook page taken at Ames Iowa in older days showing Mason Bogie DSP&P 24/C&S 1 in  the shape it was when it arrived there.

[misterv]

Thanks for this great post Kurt.

I find it objectionable that CRRM has decided that returning 191 to full operation is "not feasible".

I will bet you that Stathi Pappas (Stockton Locomotive Works/CATS Special Projects) could do it.. and for something as important as the oldest locomotive in Colorado having it be operational is pretty dang important.

CRRM should at least say what is so "not feasible".  If it's that they think it would cost too much, then they should say that.

[Alex Hois]

MisterV,
The problem of  191 is the boiler.

See http://c-sng-discussion-forum.41377.n7.nabble.com/The-remaining-Locos-td14535.html#a14542

"SP&P 51 / DL&G 191 has an iron lap seam boiler, and would be cheaper to build a new one from scratch than make the original legal to run."

See also here: https://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,121934,121934#msg-121934

How historic would the engine be after completely replacing the boiler?

You can find more details about lap seam boilers on this thread:
https://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,420055,420055#msg-420055

Alex

[Dave Eggleston]

"How historic would the engine be after completely replacing the boiler? "

But what exactly is historic, to be honest? As the threads discuss, there is no one answer to this. Do you take it back to its origins, to later phases, leave it in its decayed state? No matter what you do, people will be unhappy. And while to just cosmetically restore the engine for static display is better than where it is today, is that really historic when you consider that it was an operational steam machine? To me historic is far deeper than skin appearance. Which means I'd love to see 191 restored and functional, with all original non-functional parts archived but replaced as accurately as possible as a fantastic addition to our experience, even it's not to the era we may prefer.

These artifacts stuffed on a plinth are intriguing but missing so much. There is real joy in seeing operational, as close to original engines such as Eureka, Tahoe or Inyo. The experience of the sounds, smells and movement elevate things. These restorations included in-depth analysis and protection of what existed, saving a great deal of information that could have been lost (as we see in many earlier "restorations").

Heck, I'm damn happy that a fellow in Texas (I think) has been building, from scratch, a reproduction of the very early V&T engine Lyon to as close as possible standards as possible, in close association with the NSRM. Lyon and the other very properly done modern restorations show 191 can be made operational and all the remaining bits properly archived for future historians to research but this requires a giant mental leap from insisting on original versus operational to considering a properly managed hybrid. I say it's worth the leap.

[misterv]

I agree with degg13.  The real value in a historical artifact like 191 comes from having it be operational, so that the machine can be experienced again as it once was.  The smell, the heat, the sound, the way it moves, etc.  All of these things are lost when the CRRM says "we can't make an authentic boiler".

Few people would know or care that the boiler isn't authentic.  After all, one made of steel with the same proportions could be readily fabricated in a boiler shop that knows what they're doing, like Stockton Locomotive Works.  It would look the same, but it would be safe.  The current iron and any other components that HAD to be replaced to restore 191 to operational status could be kept for reference, if needed.

The risk with having something like 191 be a static-only display is that the museum-going public isn't as interested.  "It used to run.." becomes "so what?" for far too many people.  In contrast, the impact of having 191 chugging around the CRRM track would be far greater.

And in the end, it's all about impacting people.  Without impacting people, CRRM itself may eventually dry up and blow away like the NG railroads themselves did.  How many people do you know that go to the Forney Museum to see their static displays?  How often do they go?

On the other hand, impacting people would mean that 191 and other historical treasures could be USEFULLY preserved, and that more preservation could ultimately be achieved.

[South Park]

  Well then, ...  I find it objectionable that the track and infrastructure
to run trains between St. Elmo and Pitkin have not been restored to
operational !  I mean, what is the hold up here, people ? !!!

[Dave Eggleston]

Ha! I would agree on that, it would be an amazing run. I'd argue to run it from BV to Pitkin to pull in more riders.

Imagine the creative funding to make it a viable operation; making 191 functional would be a drop in the bucket in comparison. The UP and following owners could barely keep it open for 6 months every year from 1883 on, and every re-opening cost them a king's ransom. Heck, it was closed into August many years, which would miss a chunk of summer tourist traffic.

But if some crazy billionaire ever did open it (are you listening Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos: Space travel is overrated!) I'd really hope they used the open tourist cars seen on the CC and South Park, not modern yellow things.  And have annual (June-August) extra-cost railfan rotary operations extravaganzas! Maybe on eastbound trips upon exiting the tunnel they can simulate the standard out-of-control train hurtling to Hancock (>5mph, with brakies scrambling over cars tying down brakes) for added thrills.

Dare to dream!