Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

[Jim Courtney]

Alas...no high side gons on the coal trestle at Dickey!  These are quite the conversations you have going, Jim!


Nope, no D&RG gons on the coaling trestle at Dickey, Keith.

But Pat's info documents that many D&RG cars, up to 1925, passed directly next to the coaling trestle in C&S train consists -- mostly gons but occasionally boxcars and stock cars laden with coal.

This has been another unexpectedly fascinating thread. From the point of view of someone interested in modeling Breckenridge from 1901 to 1924, I learned something extraordinary . . . coal cars laden with coal moved through Breckenridge in both directions!

Baldwin coal in D&RG cars, to be delivered to commercial dealers and industries, moved from Leadville eastbound, to Como, Alma and Fairplay, some being delivered to the commercial coal sheds at Breck. Empties (D&RG cars) returned to Leadville westbound.

C&S company coal, in C&S coal cars, moved westbound from Denver, over Boreas Pass, through Breck to reach the coal chutes at Dickey. Per Mike, most was Trinidad coal, occasionally coal from Baldwin. In the case of Baldwin coal, the loads were moved over the Continental divide eastbound from Baldwin to Salida, transferred to standard gauge cars on the barrel transfer, then delivered to the C&S at Pueblo. The C&S moved the Baldwin coal up to Denver, for locomotive coal at that terminal. Occasionally Baldwin coal was transferred back into C&S narrow gauge coal cars in Denver and hauled back over the Continental divide westbound at Boreas to reach Dickey.  You can't make this stuff up!!

And did Baldwin coal ever get hauled on to Leadville for locomotive coaling?? That would be a third trip over the Continental Divide at Fremont Pass, for the same ton of coal. How about it Mike?? Any oral histories that you collected that addressed coal for C&S locomotive use at Leadville? Was it, too, hauled all the way from Denver, or did the D&RG deliver it to the C&S at Leadville in standard gauge hoppers and gons??

[Mike Trent]

Hmmmmm. I'm going to suspect that the coal pockets at Leadville would have had to have been filled by hand, so until the Red Devil was installed at Leadville, they would have depended on coal from westbound gons. After abandonment, at some point the Red Devil was put in service and the pocket there was filled by standard gauge hopper cars. I have seen a picture that shows a number of coal gons sitting on what I call the Leadville siding at Dickey, near the depot. The cars are overfilled with coal bound for Leadville. So now I'm thinking a lot of those stored coal gons were moved to Leadville for use after abandonment in 1937. Hand loaded into the old coal pockets until the Red Devil was put in to coal the 600 class 2-8-0's after the trackage was regauged in 1943.

Do we know when the Red Devil was put in?

[Jim Courtney]

The earliest dated photo of the "Red Devil" that I've seen is from 1956:




But I suspect that the Red Devil was installed in 1943, when the gauge of the Leadville to Climax branch was changed. It is one thing to shovel coal from a trackside coal bin into a narrow gauge tender, quite another to throw coal up in the air and over the sides of a standard gauge tender.

So, Mike, you think that C&S locomotive coal, before and after the D&RG third-rail was taken up, was moved from Denver to Leadville, over both Boreas and Fremont passes. And if some was Baldwin coal, that means it was moved about 450 miles by rail, required transfer between the gauges twice and was hauled over the Continental Divide 3 times. The distance as the crow flies is about 50 miles between Baldwin and Leadville. That's about the same operating efficiency as the route over Alpine Pass!!

No wonder the South Park division was never financially solvent . . .

I've also found a reference that commercial coal for Breckenridge, as late as 1929-1930, was delivered to Leadville by the D&RGW, transferred to narrow gauge C&S cars, then hauled eastbound to Breckenridge. Presumably this was also Baldwin coal.

[Mike Trent]

I'm pretty sure I've seen a picture of #76 taking coal from the Red Devil. But I can't think of where it was.

If they hauled commercial coal Eastbound from Leadville, they probably hauled company coal that way too. Maybe records will surface eventually.

[Pat Student]

Jim

D&RG, later D&RGW, operated the Baldwin and Pitkin Branches for the C&S from 1910/1911 to 1937. As part of the operating agreement, was C&S obligated to provide cars to handle traffic off these branches? If so, how long did it last? were cars supplied in the beginning and then terminated due to complications keeping these cars segregated? Demurrage issues, was D&RGW taking too long to load and interchange them back to C&S? This would have become moot in  late 1924 when three rail operation was discontinued between Salida and Leadville. These questions have intrigued me since I first documented a C&S car in a hill turn on Marshall Pass.

In 1919 D&RG modified 2 high sides 1541 and 1866 with three way couple pockets on the A-end. Stan Rhine in his Rio Grande High Side Gondolas states these conversions were to move C&S cars between Buena Vista and Leadville.  If this were the case the modified cars should have been provided by the C&S. I believe they were modified by the D&RG to simplify moving narrow gage cars between Salida and Leadville including C&S cars between Buena Vista and Leadville. They were rebuilt to standard 50" inside height cars in November 1924 with the 3-way coupler pockets removed.

My hill turn data shows that 59 cars were desting Buena Vista and 745 cars Leadville. I don't lnow how many, if any, were to be interchanged with the C&S.

While the First District of the Second Division; Salida, Leadville and Minturn; was 3-railed between Salida and Leadville, not all sidings were.  There were 3-rail equipped sidings between each non-equipped siding.  This made for some interesting dispatching. 3-rail was removed by June of 1925.

The mechanical transfer at Barrel began operation in September/October 1924. Until then all transfer were by hand. Paid $0.75 per day.

As done at Montrose in the 40's.

Pat

[Jim Courtney]

Hey Pat,

The question of whether C&S coal cars were commonly used between Baldwin and Leadville with return has also intrigued me as well. The only indirect evidence that this might have been the case is mentioned upthread--when the D&RG third rail was removed in early 1925, the C&S abruptly decided to sell nearly 100 of the older St Charles coal cars in early 1926. Makes one wonder if they had been in use and were suddenly surplus.

They would've looked like this coal car at Baileys in 1926, pretty beat up:




And the transfer of coal and ore on the C&S was done the same way at Denver:



Both photos by Kindig, in Narrow Gauge Pictorial VIII

As Denver was a more expensive place to live, they may have gotten a dollar a day .  .  .

[Mike Trent]

Those loads look like silica, or sand, or some sort of concentrate? But I get your point. Tough times, tough work.

[Dave Eggleston]

Pat, I've also wondered about the cars sitting west of Hancock when the C&S handed ops over to the Grande in February 1911.

From a Dec 5 1910 letter Dan Edwards shared in V1 of his series, 68 coal, 37 box and 15 stock were at Gunnison on that date. In addition there was 1 flanger, 2 reefers, 2 outfit, 48 boxcars, 3 flats, 157 coal and 30 stock along the line west of the tunnel on that date. That's 363 cars--but no car numbers are given. This breakdown shows the predominant traffic on the line at that section of the railroad at that time.

[Edit] I found in Edwards that in Nov 1910 the Gunnison paper reported 300 cars handed over to the D&RG. In October there was also mention of leasing 350 cars to the D&RG. I have no confirmation or outcome of this. I've pulled 1908, 1909, 1910 and 1911 ORERs off Google books to see if it's possible to see a 300 car drop but definitely have some teasing out of counts of cars being built versus cars being removed. [end EDIT]

I don't recall seeing that the C&S cars was obligated to provide cars in the deal. I suspect the few C&S cars deemed most useful made it back to the remaining C&S system. The coal cars must've lived a tremendously difficult life and may not have been in the Grande's interest to keep around. Without knowing which cars it's hard to say.

There aren't too many photos of the Pitkin or Baldwin operations after 1911, but what I remember are from the 1920s to 1930s and what we generally see are D&RG gondolas, boxcars and stockcars.

All that said, there's likely some document out there someone knows about that would answer all this.

[Jimmy Blouch]

Stan Rhine's information in Rio Grande High Side Gondoldas regarding conversion of 2 gons with 3 way couplers is correct.

Jimmy

[Jim Courtney]

Just listed on eBay is one of the Cimarron Works cast resin C&S cinder car kits in On3, the master created by Bob Stears, as Mike Trent described in his first post:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/125418177988?hash=item1d338185c4:g:cvQAAOSwhTVi0axF