Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
50 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed #4299 Updated

Jeff Young
snapped_bolt wrote
...
   The home shop probably unbolted the box from the flat, and rolled the flat under a box that was in better condition from former #4286, which may have a damaged underbody, and no replacement parts to repair it.
   Since the Q wouldn't authorize the purchase of replacement wood, this would be a reasonable (and quicker) repair. Longevity probably was no longer a huge deciding factor.
    I also cannot see any of those hold-down bolts with the forged ends holding the box down, but the U-bolts look as if they were cinched up tight.
The missing strap-irons certainly lend credence to this theory.  Interesting indeed.

Cheers,
Jeff.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Todd A Ferguson
In reply to this post by Mike Trent
Mike,  if the 1902 cars were surplus by 1910 would it really have been necessary to buy Phase III coals at all.  Or were there other reasons to buy them, perhaps better SUF and safety gear to meet newer government regulations?  Or was the idea to buy and road use the new coals and have the 1902 coals for this coal storage use?  It’s interesting to consider.

Todd
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Jim Courtney
This post was updated on .
Hey Todd,

You have to remember the unfolding of events in 1910.

In 1902, the C&S car shops embarked on a narrow gauge car building program, to modernize the fleet and eventually retire all the inherited UP-era cars. The phase 1 coal cars and flats were built in 1902. Later, between 1907 and 1910 most of the freight cars that would survive to abandonment were constructed, the last cars with the SUF design: Reefers in early 1909, box cars in 1909-1910 and finally stock cars and coal cars with the SUF were delivered for use in the summer of 1910.

Then in the fall of 1910, Alpine Tunnel was abruptly closed for good. The trackage from Bath to Buena Vista was also closed, flooding along Trout Creek being given as a reason. In 1911, management tried to close Boreas Pass, too. They succeeded from 1911-1913, with Breckenridge and Dillon being served from Leadville, until the courts ordered the C&S to resume service over Boreas. So, by the winter of 1911-12, the former South Park division had been dismembered. The mainline from Denver to Como and Alma was still in place, but there were multiple isolated segments: Leadville to Breckenridge / Dillon, Buena Vista to Hancock, Pitkin to Gunnison to Baldwin. And about 1910 the Colorado mining industry began its steady decline

Most of the through business from Gunnison north was Baldwin coal, consigned to Denver or to Leadville. Some was transferred to the Colorado Midland at Newitt to reach the Cripple Creek market. With the closure of Alpine Tunnel, the need for all those coal cars to haul Baldwin coal was gone.

I can imagine a brief meeting between the then new Q management and the Master Car Forman in the fall of 1910: "Ahem . . . we have come up with new business plan. You won't need to build anymore new narrow gauge freight cars. And those old narrow gauge cabooses that you've been rebuilding for the past couple of years -- trust us, you have enough already."

It makes sense that the newest coal cars, the 1908 (phase 2) and 1910 (phase 3) cars would be the most likely to remain in revenue use. The 1898 St Charles cars and the 1902 coal cars may have become unexpectedly surplus from 1911 onward. These older cars may well have sat around at Pine, Como, Dickey and Leadville, full of storage coal -- coal bins on wheels if you will. Or long strings of idle coal cars were set out on weed grown sidings, not turning a wheel for years.

What is not clear is how much Baldwin coal still moved via the D&RG to Salida and thence up the 3rd rail to Leadville. How much was consigned to C&S destinations beyond Leadville? (Commercial coal dealers in Breckenridge were advertising Baldwin coal in the mid-1920s). Did the D&RG make use of a significant number of C&S coal cars to handle this traffic? Technically, the C&S still owned the Baldwin branch.

It is interesting that after the D&RG's Salida to Leadville 3rd rail was taken up in 1925, abruptly in 1926 the C&S decided to sell nearly 100 of the St Charles coal cars (then 28 years old) to a salvage company. What were all those coal cars doing between 1910 and 1926??
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Mike Trent
Administrator
Wow, this is a vintage discussion.

I still think that issues with the coal miners union played a role causing the railroad to hoard coal. The C&S broad gauge served Rockerfeller's operation near Trinidad. Ludlow was the site of what is known as the "Ludlow Massacre" of men women and children when fired on by the National Guard during a strike in 1914. The railroad could not afford to be out of coal, and from Dickey, coal could be transported to either Leadville or Denver if needed. Surplus or unused coal cars made a very convenient way to store it for decades.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Dave Eggleston
Romley's mines were a big customer for Baldwin coal and I believe that after 1910 coal moved over the D&RG to Buena Vista, if I recall correctly, for some years after the tunnel closed, and maybe until the Chalk Creek line was abandoned.

From 1882 to 1910 the cost to get that coal from Baldwin to Como was substantial, something like 10% of the load equivalent was consumed by the locomotives on the trip. We're talking 4-5 engine trains of 12-14 cars + combine on the pull to Alpine tunnel. And the operation was closed annually for up to 5-8 months due to weather between Pitkin and St Elmo. The coal was easily the biggest commodity hauled on the Baldwin - Buena Vista line and the main reason it was kept open. Yet they lost a lot of money hauling Baldwin coal...

The D&RGW did manage to turn Baldwin coal it into a very profitable venture.
Dave Eggleston
Seattle, WA
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Todd A Ferguson
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
It would still seem to me if the Q management goal was to get rid of the narrow gauge as quickly as possible then why invest in new SUF cars.  Certainly they were not investing in new locomotives to make operations more efficient it seems.  Maybe there was a dramatic change in management plans in a year or two, but it seems from some of what I have read the goal was pretty much always to shut down the narrow gauge as quickly as possible.

It makes sense to me that the old heritage cars would not be worth the cost and effort to bring up to 1910 or beyond standards.  But were they really too rolling stock
constrained to go on with out building a fair number of new cars. Perhaps, or maybe they realized that getting fully rid of the narrow gauge was going to take much longer than they originally thought and hoped.

Todd
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Mike Trent
Administrator
Am I mistaken that the Q didn't take control of the C&S until 1918?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Todd Hackett
Mike Trent wrote
Am I mistaken that the Q didn't take control of the C&S until 1918?
I'm not sure how much control they exerted, but according to the BNSF, C&S was acquired in 1908:
"1908 - The C&S and FW&D become part of the Chicago,
Burlington & Quincy system"
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Jim Courtney
In reply to this post by Mike Trent
Nope, Mike, the Hawley financial interests took control of the C&S in 1902, worked well with Frank Trumbull, the C&S president. They helped organize the 50% purchase of the Colorado Midland, along with the Rio Grande Western (to keep the D&RG in check). The Hawley group sold their controlling interest in the C&S / FW&D system to the CB&Q in December of 1908. At that time Frank Trumbull retired and the new Q management began to run the C&S system. The CB&Q had no interest in local Colorado traffic. What they coveted (along with their Hill Lines owners, the NP and GN) was the standard gauge mainline from Cheyenne through Denver to Ft Worth, Texas and the joint ownership of the B-RI to Galveston. Eventually this allowed a direct route from Seattle and Puget Sound to tidewater at Galveston.

And Todd, I don't want to argue the point, but my experience in working in large institutions (hospitals in my case) has been that when management changes with sales or mergers, the new management doesn't start making changes on day one. Nope, they settle into their desks, start looking around, getting the lay of the land. They figure out who in the senior organization will resist their desired changes and slowly replace them, bringing in known outsiders who will go along with the program. Meanwhile, institutional inertia keeps things running. The C&S car building program, including the 1910 SUF coal car construction, were programs of the prior Trumbull administration. The new management simply let that program continue, while they had bigger fish to fry--incorporating the C&S/FW&D standard gauge lines into the Hill Lines mega-system. They didn't finish that task until the Burlington Northern merger of 1969.

And I don't agree with the idea that everyone's desire was to get rid of the narrow gauge South Park divisions. As Dave pointed out, because of the topography of the physical plant, the South Park was a very expensive road to operate. It took a lot of money every year just to run the trains, much less to turn a profit. The only hope of financial solvency for the South Park narrow gauge was a consistent high volume commodity to haul as through traffic. Between 1879 and 1883, the Leadville boom, a speculative bubble perhaps, provided that high volume of traffic. The collapse of the Leadville boom and subsequent UP control and mismanagement made the South Park the red-headed step child of every subsequent owner.

We don't tend to think of the South Park as a coal hauler like the C&O or B&O. But when the courts dropped the South Park (DL&G) into the lap of Frank Trumbull as receiver, he had to find new sources of revenue to rehabilitate the road, along with the UPD&G and its narrow gauge division. Frank Trumbull was a Denver coal man, president of the Citizens Coal Company. He saw the coal from Baldwin as a new source of through traffic revenue for the DL&G, as well as a cost cutting measure for locomotive coal (coal didn't have to be moved from Trinidad to Denver and then to Como and Leadville). It was Trumbull who ordered the Alpine Tunnel reopened, to tap the potential from Baldwin coal marketed in Denver and Leadville. He may have personally profited from that traffic, given his personal coal marketing investments.

As he rehabilitated both the narrow gauge divisions, Trumbull, as receiver and then president of the new C&S, did make investments in new operating efficiencies, including new locomotives. The big Baldwin 2-8-0s (later class B4-E, C&S 71-73) were purchased in 1897 for the UPD&G, though they spent most of their time on the heavy grades of the South Park division. When new freight cars were purchased in 1897 and 1898 from St Charles, 260 of them (68% of the total) were new 30 foot, 25 ton coal cars. Trumbull also became president of the Colorado Midland in 1902, when the C&S purchased half interest. He developed coal traffic from Baldwin to the Midland at Newitt so that, indirectly, the South Park division of the C&S could participate in the Cripple Creek boom. The C&S car building program of 1902-1910 was another efficiency move--rather than buy more cars from St Charles / AC&F, the C&S would build their own.

The South Park division that so fascinates us would likely not have been incorporated into the new C&S, if not for Frank Trumbull and Baldwin coal. The president of the FW&D was forcefully against its inclusion in the new company, seeing it as a perpetual money loser. Trumbull was the best manager of the South Park, not because he liked quaint narrow gauge trains in spectacular mountain scenery, but because it was his job and he was an adept business man who new both the railroad and coal businesses.

When the new Q management took over, priorities changed. It took less than two years, but the destruction of the C&S narrow gauges began in October of 1910.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Mike Trent
Administrator
Thanks, guys, for the clarification.

As an aside, Doug Shnarbush said that the Baldwin coal was much better to fire than Trinidad coal, which was brought up from Denver quite often in the 30's. I wonder if the untold tons of coal at Dickey were Baldwin or Trinidad coal? We'll never know, I suppose.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Dave Eggleston
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
Jim,

I'm sure I've read that Trumbull DID have direct ownership interest in the Baldwin coal fields.

I'm also pretty convinced he was the central driver of re-opening the Tunnel line in 1894, a radical idea given the realities the DSP&P and UP had experienced operating the coal trains. There are indications he had to forcefully sell this idea but it clearly benefited him directly to have the pipeline open.

Had Trumbull continued a president past 1910, even if the property wasn't owned by the Q, I suspect that the Tunnel line would've pretty quickly been put out of operation. The entire scheme was predicated on a great number of tenuous requirements, in and out of his control, that couldn't continue into the 20th century. Things were already deteriorating in 1893 before he opened the line, but he had no crystal ball.

I agree with you about the sheer momentum of operations pushing on for a time after the management or industry change. I've seen the same at the companies I've been associated with.
Dave Eggleston
Seattle, WA
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Jim Courtney
In reply to this post by Mike Trent
Mike,

The notion that Baldwin coal was superior to other types for locomotive firing was likely true. It also seems to have been the preferred coal for residential heating.

The Klingers' recent new book has a couple of Breckenridge newspaper adds from local coal dealers c.1921:




Both touted availability of Baldwin coal, presumably shipped in D&RG cars from Baldwin via Salida and Leadville to Breck. The Baldwin coal was described as burning hotter with less ash and clinker, apparently confirmed by "government tests". Homeowners who wished to stock up on heating coal for winter were invited to pick up the phone and call for delivery to their door. (Note the telephone numbers, "41J" and . . . well, "3".)

And this photo from the book demonstrates that not all D&RG cars of Baldwin coal made it down the Tenmile to reach Breckenridge:




Your last question is a good one--Did the C&S continue to buy Baldwin coal for locomotive use after the Alpine Tunnel closure??
If so, does that mean that for some 15 years (1910-1925) D&RG not-yet-high-side gons could be seen alongside the coal bins and on the coal trestle at Dickey, laden with Baldwin coal. Or did the C&S supply some of those idle coal cars to the D&RG as part of the arrangement?

As an afterthought, if you still have some of that coal you collected from the C&S 73 / 75 wreck site, perhaps you could have it "government tested" to see if it was Baldwin coal . . .
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Mike Trent
Administrator
Ha! I hadn't considered that. One thing for certain is that coal came out of the docks at Dickey. Old Doug said just what you said. The Trinidad coal clinkered and just didn't burn like Baldwin coal. Made their job much harder.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Dave Eggleston
The C&S was a pretty big system, and the Q was even bigger. Perhaps they had plenty of coal along their routes? Did they worry that the Baldwin coal wasn't available after 1910?
Dave Eggleston
Seattle, WA
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Pat Student
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
Jim

The 9200s, 1000s, 1250s aa500s and 1900s were "high sides" as built.  The ICC defined a godola as a "high side" if the sides were more than 36" above the floor.  9300 - 9574, 1000s. 1250s and 1500s had sides as built of 40".  9200 -9299 and 1500s had sides of 50", same for all rebuilt cars in the 20's.

Pat
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Jim Courtney
I stand corrected, Pat. Using that definition, all the C&S coal cars had sides / ends of 40", so I guess they were "high-side" coal cars then.

I've always used the definition "high-side" to denote 5-board (50") gons, as opposed to 4-board (40") gons.

The unanswered question is whether the C&S continued to use Baldwin coal for locomotive fuel after 1910.  In your research, have you found any evidence of either D&RG or C&S cars moving over Marshall Pass, hauling coal, consigned to Dickey, CO??
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Mike Trent
Administrator
Doug S worked on the West End from 1927 till abandonment in 1937, and they had coal from both Baldwin and Trinidad during that time. I'm pretty sure he told us that all their coal came up from Denver, they didn't receive coal from Leadville. It wasn't till they got it into the tenders that they were able to tell if it was Baldwin coal. Most of it on the West End came from Trinidad. He always thought the C&S wanted to use Baldwin coal out of Denver on the East End and on the standard gauge.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Jim Courtney
Interesting info Mike,

So Baldwin coal was the preferred C&S fuel, but the West end of the narrow gauge got whatever was sent to them, often Trinidad coal.

And I guess Pat wouldn't be able to tell if Baldwin coal was shipped to Dickey for company use. Company coal would have just been consigned to Leadville, with the C&S then distributing it. Sounds like that didn't happen. So Baldwin coal in D&RG gons would have been consigned only to commercial coal dealers or other industrial customers on the South Park division.
Jim Courtney
Poulsbo, WA
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Keith Hayes
Alas...no high side gons on the coal trestle at Dickey!

These are quite the conversations you have going, Jim!
Keith Hayes
Leadville in Sn3
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cimarron Coal Gons Update ~ Completed

Pat Student
In reply to this post by Jim Courtney
Jim

Unfortunately, railroad operating documents only reveal where a shipment is destined. I so much would like to know whether coal originated off the Baldwin Branch or the Created Butte Branch.

In 1924 three mines produced coal on the Baldwin Branch: Alpine, semi-bituminous, 27,643 tons; Baldwin Star, bituminous, 4,762 tons; and Ohio Creek, semi-bituminous, 8,070 tons. 13 other mines produced coal over the next couple dozen years with Nu-Mine, semi-bituminous; being the only significant producer beginning in 1940.

Other than Buena Vista and Leadville, both served by the C&S  and D&RGW  the only C&S stations I have records are Alma, Breckenridge, Fairplay, Garos and Kokomo. All received coal, Alma received two cars of props in 5900 series stock cars, Breckenridge received one car of ore in an 1000 series gondola, and Fairplay received one car of posts on a 9300 series gondola.

On the Crested Butte side bituminous, semi-anthracite and anthracite were mined.

I've been told, but with no documentation that Baldwin coal was primarily destined to Alamosa's power plant.

If any of the above mentioned station had smelter some of the anthracite would be destined to them.

As bituminous coal has between 45 - 85% carbon content versus semi-bituminous's 35-45%,  one would question the claims in the ads.

As to other commodities that could have been interchanged to the C&S, two come to mind finished lumber and livestock.  D&RGW served saw mills at Chama, Durango, Gunnison, Sargent and Sapinero. ( I haven't seen any discussion on sw mills on the Forum).  Livestock had ultimate destinations of Denver, Kansas City and Omaha.  Could some of these shipments been routed through C&S Leadville from Cleora?

Pat







123